Some linguistics for non-linguists

Little or nothing to do with distillation.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

May I address a bit strange question to the native BE, AE, CE, NZE and other native speakers, please? :egeek:

"Jane's house, that we visited yesterday, is in terrible state" — what's wrong/odd in this expression from your own point of view?

First / intuitive / average opinions are highly appreciated.

Thank y'all..

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Twisted Brick »

Pardon my ignorance of BE, AE, CE, NZE (different country's form of English?)

The above expression is not odd, but is missing the following:

"Jane's house, that we visited yesterday, is in a terrible state" refers to the less-than-optimum condition (or state of affairs) that it is in.

Does that help?
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Yummyrum »

yes twisted , but it could also be taken that the state she lives in, is a terrible one. IE , if you hated bush fires , you might say Califonia is a terrible state .

Oh yes , the Enlish language is a complicated beast .
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The missing " a " would have been my pick also.
I was also going to point out that state could have two meanings....Yummy beat me there.
cayars
Distiller
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:08 am

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by cayars »

"Jane's house, that we visited yesterday, is in terrible state" seems fine to me just like:
Jane's house, that we visited yesterday, is in poor condition.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
FLOB
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:08 pm

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by FLOB »

To me, it reads like a direct translation to English from a different language like French or Spanish. So skipping the two meanings of state, the clause "that we visited yesterday" while grammatically correct isn't how it would most likely be written in the US.

We visited Jane's house yesterday and it is in a terrible state.
cayars
Distiller
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:08 am

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by cayars »

Which terrible state is it in? California, NY? The "a" may change the meaning of the sentence.
But don't listen to me. I'm the devil when it comes to grammar.

"We visited Jan's house yesterday and it sucks." :)
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by pope »

I'm not a grammar teacher so I'd just say "We went to Jan's place yesterday, what a sh*thole." I know you've got a sense of humor so I can't tell if you're honestly asking or teasing, Vlaga!
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by The Baker »

With a lot of expressions in English, and no doubt in other languages, there can often be more than one meaning. (Ambiguities).

Context is important.

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Kareltje »

I am not allowed to answer this question as I am not an native speaker of English, but in my language it can be a normal question. Although a bit formal.
Interesting answers, though.

Posted at the same time as The Baker.
And indeed, several versions can be made.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by shadylane »

I can barely speak the language I was born to.
Anyone that's smart enough to speak more than one language
Has a leg up on me
cayars
Distiller
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:08 am

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by cayars »

shadylane wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:22 pm I can barely speak the language I was born to.
Anyone that's smart enough to speak more than one language
Has a leg up on me
Same!
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by shadylane »

What I could never wrap my head around
Was the syntax difference
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by still_stirrin »

There —> a place, somewhere....where?....”there”,

Their —> a possessive...who’s is it?...”their”,

They’re —> a contraction for “they are”.

All pronounced identically and often misused in linguistics, especially these forums.

Too —> excessive, or also...too much sugar, or I drank too much too!

Two —> a number...2

To —> a preposition...to do, to go, to you, to me...or a place as in “a place to go to”

Again, all pronounced the same and often misused on these forums.

Granted, not all members have been trained in our English grammer, but some of us who have been still misuse the language flagrantly.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Okay folks, you have really helped, my thanx to everyone!

"Jane's house, that we visited yesterday, is in terrible state"

So, we nailed "a" down and back,,, but how about "which" instead of "that"?

And how do you finally feel about the version like that: "The Jane's house, which we visited yesterday, is in a terrible state" ??

= thankee =
still_stirrin wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:31 pm in our English grammer
:shifty: a nice joke :shifty:
Last edited by VLAGAVULVIN on Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by HDNB »

my, vlagavulvin, you are a cunning linguist.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
metalsmith
Bootlegger
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:15 pm

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by metalsmith »

I am an engineer. English is my native tongue. I can’t comment unless you need heat transfer calculations.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

HDNB wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:42 pm my, vlagavulvin, you are a cunning linguist.
Lol, I am ))

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

metalsmith wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:47 pm I am an engineer. English is my native tongue. I can’t comment unless you need heat transfer calculations.
Where did you grow up with your tongue, please?

har druckit för mycket
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by The Baker »

"The Jane's house, which we visited yesterday, is in a terrible state"

Jane's house means the house of Jane.

The Jane's house is not the house of Jane. The Jane is not the same as Jane. The Jane is something, dunno what, but it describes the ownership of the house or the kind of house. Like if I said, 'The Russian's house', maybe?

And I know who Jane is but I do not know who or what 'the Jane' is.Confusing?

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
Yonder
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:53 pm
Location: Best State in the Union!

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Yonder »

Vlaga, using “which” would call for a comma, while using “that” does not. As if anyone really gave a rat’s ass.
Double, Double, toil and trouble. Fire Burn and pot still bubble.
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

The Baker wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:02 pm And I know who Jane is but I do not know who or what 'the Jane' is.Confusing?
For me, it's not too confusing: 'The Russian's house' = the house of exactly that Russian person [which was contextually mentioned before]. Correct me?..
Yonder wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:07 pm Vlaga, using “which” would call for a comma, while using “that” does not. As if anyone really gave a rat’s ass.
So, is it the only difference that/which (damn!) you folks can sense for the present moment / in the modern time of English?

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Twisted Brick »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:31 pm There —> a place, somewhere....where?....”there”,

Their —> a possessive...who’s is it?...”their”,

They’re —> a contraction for “they are”.

No doubt, American English can be a challenge, but don't forget regional dialect (accent), potentially consistent with the diversity here on HD. Consider NASCAR owner Junior Johnson's post-race interview where he made the comment: "To know how we lost that race, all you have to do is look over they-ur at the tar's on that cow-ar." Yes, indeed.

OTOH, I forgot who (an old-timer like prairie piss or dnderhead) questioned it, but how did the Forum manage to butcher dephlegmator into deflag?

The Silliest Words in Whiskey
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
OtisT
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by OtisT »

The Baker wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:02 pm "The Jane's house, which we visited yesterday, is in a terrible state"

Jane's house means the house of Jane.

The Jane's house is not the house of Jane. The Jane is not the same as Jane. The Jane is something, dunno what, but it describes the ownership of the house or the kind of house. Like if I said, 'The Russian's house', maybe?

And I know who Jane is but I do not know who or what 'the Jane' is.Confusing?

Geoff
This could be the family’s last name so it would be proper to says it the way it was written. Like saying the smiths’ house, meaning a house belonging to a family with the last name of Smith.

Or possibly Jane is so famous she is known as “The Jane”, like The Rock.

Otis
Last edited by OtisT on Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

OtisT wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:54 pm Or possibly Jane is so famous she is known as “The Jane”, like The Rock.
Yepp: this is the James LaBrie that bla-bla-bla... :wink:

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
Swedish Pride
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2644
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:16 am
Location: Emerald Isle

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by Swedish Pride »

HDNB wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:42 pm my, vlagavulvin, you are a cunning linguist.
wouldn't that be cunnilinguist ?
Don't be a dick
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Let's keep it secret :shh:

har druckit för mycket
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by shadylane »

Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:05 pm No doubt, American English can be a challenge
That depends on the local accent and state of sobriety
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by The Baker »

To speak American I hold my nose closed with my thumb and finger.
And pronounce every 't' within a word as a 'd'.

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Distiller
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: Some linguistics for non-linguists

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

The Baker wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:09 pm To speak American I hold my nose closed with my thumb and finger.
And pronounce every 't' within a word as a 'd'.
But then it's kinda non-rhotic South at best...

har druckit för mycket
Post Reply