New local distillery

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marshrunner757
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New local distillery

Post by marshrunner757 »

I have somewhat of a moral question that's been on my mind. Recently I visited a new local distillery. Very small operation and pretty basic in my mind. The guy is super nice and very in tune with distillation. However, in my opinion, which doesn't mean much, he is not very in tune with distillation of alcohol. First, in my modest opinion he's being greedy pushing a sugar wash to 15%. It has quit the bite. Also, he runs it through a 6 stage filter, carbon, particle, some kind of precious metal and so on. My question is this. Should I make any sort of suggestions, like dropping back to 10% SG, or just let him go. I'd like to see him succeed and he may on his on. He says a lot of people have paid many compliments but I'd assume most are probably friends this early in the game.

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bluefish_dist
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Re: New local distillery

Post by bluefish_dist »

If someone came through my place on a tour, I would prefer they be honest and give truthful feedback instead of just smile and say it's great. I wouldn't call him out in front of anyone, but I would offer the advise in private.
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bitter
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Re: New local distillery

Post by bitter »

In the end you making comments might help improve the product and help them be successful. But be respectful and feel things out.. maybe the guy does not know better?

I'd make comments but not in front of other people.. Also be prepared for what are you making at home.. of some implication of moonshining...

If you have something really nice and clean maybe an example of somethign good or him? This could upset him due to the legality.

Are his cuts ok? Too much heads? Too much tails? or is it just the ferment being so high.. and not as clean as one would hope.

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marshrunner757
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Re: New local distillery

Post by marshrunner757 »

I didn't go in depth on his cuts as I felt I may be pushing to hard. And by all means, if I make any suggestions, it will be in total privacy and would be along the lines of, hey why don't you try making a batch at 10 or 12% and see how it comes out. He's only made 4 runs and has tweaked things between each run, including a substantial modification to his still. I think he got a little ahead of himself.

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StillerBoy
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Re: New local distillery

Post by StillerBoy »

Best way to approach the issues with the distiller is in form of questions in private, and see how he responds vers direct statements.. such as " have you tried to do a 10% wash vers a 15%".. " etc.. if he's ok with the question and he responds with experience, then you can respond by stating that a lower percent wash as less heads, etc.. otherwise leave it alone..

Mars
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HDNB
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Re: New local distillery

Post by HDNB »

i was at a tasting recently and some douchebag came up to the master distiller and started into about how his collection of 90 bottles of scotch made him an expert in all things whiskey and with a condescending tone told him he "has a long way to go"
Apparently this clown thought the brand new distillery was expected to wave an alchemy wand and instantly produce 18yr old Macallen whiskey at 10 bucks a bottle for this guy's amazing palate.

ignorant prick of totally useless information. Literally every other person there was saying things like "this is the best vodka i've had...wow!" and "I'm amazed at how much grain flavour white whiskey has"

I had one of everything (of course) and the product was well cut and very grain forward. one of the whiskies had a bit much tails for my liking, but i could see it would be great with some time on oak. I discussed this with him, and he explained the one i thought a bit bitter was cut for barreling, not for white, but he wanted to show some breadth to his small line up of new products...he was well aware it was a hint tailsy. The guy showed me the graph from the GC on his vodka, and it was as clean as vodka comes. tasted like water going down and had a smooth mouthfeel. the alcohol was definitely present on the retrohale, but still warming not burning.

the rest of the crowd was very supportive and he asked for honesty which was heaped on from some not so sophisticated palates and some guys and gals that really knew their stuff. All the information and opinions was accepted gracefully with some thought. But the rest of the crowd brought it as a discussion, not from thinly veiled superiority.

i guess what i'm saying is that an honest opinion is/was well received. Maybe it's all in the delivery.
You could say "15% ferments stress the yeast out and your vodka tastes like burnt rubber, you should really learn more about what you are doing"
or
"I'm no pro but..."
"I get a hint of an off flavour in your vodka. This homedistillers forum i'm part of a lot of guys say that fermenting grain below 8% will give a cleaner neutral. Do you think there is something to that, or do you figure your filtering works better?"

or some such shit like that.

as a side note, i paid attention to the comments. It is totally amazing that some folks were saying notes of vanilla, caramel and old wood....from clearly new make white dawg...but many more got it right with pepper, floral, spicy, licorice in the rye and grainy, earthy and bitter on the grain whisky. Almost everyone thought the vodka was fantastic. and the two snobs from the tasting club patting each other on the back??? well, you can guess.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
marshrunner757
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Re: New local distillery

Post by marshrunner757 »

The last thing I want to come across as is some sort of expert or arrogant. I'm no expert by any means and not arrogant. I may go over Friday afternoon and visit with him. Like I said, I like the guys and hope he makes it in a big way. But, I want him to produce something he can hang his hat on and not just another liquor store "top shelf" crap. He's young and without divulging too much at this time, I know his family from the past.

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HDNB
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Re: New local distillery

Post by HDNB »

marshrunner757 wrote:The last thing I want to come across as is some sort of expert or arrogant.
Hope you don't think i was making insinuations in that regard...i wasn't. Literally every craft distiller i have met has been helpful to me and gracious about any feedback they get, i think it is hard for them to receive helpful criticism, friends don't want to hurt feelings and sooo many people have no clue/palate.

Find something in his product line you like and make some compliments where they are deserved and show some support (and the ultimate compliment) and buy a crock. Every sale counts and is appreciated i'm sure. Then...come up with a way to tell him nicely the info he wants/needs to hear.

This is why i think he wants /needs to hear it:

figure a crafty selling wholesale makes 5 bucks a bottle (maybe 10-15 retail) and if they have 4.9 million tied up in a distillery like that one just posted for sale in Florida...think how many bottles a guy has to sell just to make the vig on that kind of money (never mind pay it off!!)

he needs all the help he can get. Here's a reality check for the most basic of grassroots distillery: insurance/license/permits 10k, marketing 5k, rent 35k, utilities 6k, payments on 100k loan...15k, starvation wages 60k...=131k a year

if he clears an average very generous 7 bucks a bottle, he has to sell 18,714 bottles a year to break even (and i missed lots of expenses) By himself (unless wages go up in the estimate)

That's 9 bottles per working hour he has to make, bottle AND sell to make it back to ground zero, break even.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
marshrunner757
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Re: New local distillery

Post by marshrunner757 »

Not at all. Thanks for the info and suggestions.

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DeepSouth
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Re: New local distillery

Post by DeepSouth »

In my state, we're only allowed to give samples at full drinking strength in small little cups. I use communion cups. Most people in daily life never sip or drink full strength spirits, and when they do, they shoot it down immediately. It's hard to get feedback from the general public, because they just haven't trained their palate for drinking in that manner. I've been working on a spiced rum recipe, and before I give the sample I tell the taster the entire list of spices that were used to make it, and to think of those flavors in his head. Then when they taste it, I ask them if they can pick out any of those flavors. Are there any that they would like to increase, decrease, stay the same etc.
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MDH
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Re: New local distillery

Post by MDH »

There is nothing particularly wrong with fermenting to a very high alcohol by volume if you have one or more tall plated columns. You can compress all of the heads and still obtain a very smooth product. It just sounds like this guy doesn't know how to use his still.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
marshrunner757
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Re: New local distillery

Post by marshrunner757 »

May be the problem. He has roughly 10' plated column. This past change he was arranging it hoping to be able to cut his run time from about 16 hours to 6 hours on a 150 gallon boiler. Not sure how realistic that is since I've only run a 15 gallon LM

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