Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by Evil Wizard »

Honestly LWTCS, I can't make heads or tails of that aspen diagram. Pun intended.
Farenheit is hard enough but I don't know what the abbreviations are, nor the symbols, and the pieces of equipment aren't labelled. Maybe I'm tired. I'll just go to bed.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by Evil Wizard »

Since LWCTS was kind enough to post a diagram of a working still, here's a nasty sketch I did in photoshop of the stripping portion. You see its 5/6 heat exchangers and the vapor path is very short. In an open bottomed system, losing etoh out the bottoms is a real possibility. I can get 50% with the cold finger and no packing, I'll start adding packing in on subsequent runs and measure my bottoms losses.

Image
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by LWTCS »

zapata wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:38 pm Throw those thermometers away and run it by taste! :lolno:
Hahaha. Yeah , hey man I'm part of that too when it comes to batch.

The system can be run intuitively, but best provide uniform heat input and let the beer feed speed dictate the head temp. This also (mostly) governs the other temperatures. The trick is to get it into steady state as rapidly as possible and so programming a target head temp and let the PID control the (VFD) pump speed will get you there faster than fumbling with your controller knobs like a prepubescent playing with his first real pair of woman boobies lol.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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Evil Wizard wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:20 pm Honestly LWTCS, I can't make heads or tails of that aspen diagram. Pun intended.
Farenheit is hard enough but I don't know what the abbreviations are, nor the symbols, and the pieces of equipment aren't labelled. Maybe I'm tired. I'll just go to bed.
You're tired.

*Feed, F1, F2 represents the beer feed path.
*Bot, B1 represents beer column bottoms
*HXBOT is the heat exchanger that harvests column bottoms heat to give the beer feed its final heat up prior to injection.
*HEXBV is the heat exchanger that uses fresh beer to knock down low wines vapors and subsequently the first leg of beer heat up.
*BV2 is low wines heading into the thumper (ball with lightning bolt)
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by zapata »

Oh no, a PID too?! It burns us!
LWTCS wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:46 am Let's assume your are shooting for a 97C at the top of the beer column. The head temp at the re boiler doesn't have to be 97C . It can be 93C or 92C and will still flash alcohol with no additional heat input.
The reboiler is a thumper (whether or not it is also heated) yeah? If it's a thumper there is more latent heat energy in the incoming vapor than just a few degrees of sensible heat anyway. And when it's thumping with no additional heat it can't ever be at the exact same temp as the top of the beer column, can it? It is an equilibrium stage after all. I get that assuming vapor / liquid equilibrium is an engineer's assumption, but if we make that assumption then the reboiler liquid is in equilibrium with the vapor above it, not the vapor coming into it, right? I assume the reboiler has a very strong tendency to be below 97 (or whatever the beer column vapor is)?
But those temps I'm referring to will absolutely affect the outcome of your spirit profile. So maybe if you prefer the spirit made from the 97C head temp in the reboiler you'll need to throw a bit of heat at the reboiler.
Well now I'm not so sure of my above statement. Because I can't quite make this statement synch in my brain...how does power increase the reboiler above it's boiling point? Oh, my brain just does not like to think in terms of steady state! Is it because the added heat to the reboiler boils off enough volatiles to make a new steady state where the pot bp matches the temperature of the incoming 97C vapor? So by adding heat you are pretty much just turning down the efficiency of that stage? Neat!

I guess one needs to re-tune the reboiler heat whenever the draw-down pump runs (unless it's dinner time so you just kill the power, bung the barrels, and start over tomorrow)?
I do feel like much (or some) of that tails component does make it's way down the drain in the form of beer column bottoms. There is also the dilution factor associated with continuous feed too. But my point is I have never tasted tailsy booze off of a continuous outfit.
Well big bourbon has been trying to convince us of this for 150 years. I've certainly never tasted anything off THIS still, but I can get a feint tailsyness in cheap young bourbon, or something like Buffalo Trace white dog :sick: . I suspect the inability of a relatively simple continuous still to get rid of it all is why we are the only country to insist on charred barrels (aka mandatory activated carbon treatment). Well that and most of 'em love to bottle as much heads as they can as well. But I think your customers will be a bit more prudent with heads, and I imagine your scale gives you an advantage on the tails too. If a giant bourbon column is a stripper and a thumper, you have a stripper and a LM flute. Definitely the potential for a cleaner more intentional spirit.

So far as going down the drain, surely some tails will. No bottom stream is perfect, a small portion of ethanol will be lost, and a small portion of tails too. The more you recycle the reboiler stream, the more chances the fusel alcohols have to get flushed, even more if they chemically combine, but you don't lose much on the first pass coming over at 95-97. I imagine you'll have the easiest time getting the tails like cardboarderyll, gymsockyde, and 1,3-rottenrederaser to go down the drain than the fusels. If you can infer from the pretty well sorted industrial columns then fusels will build up. But to what extent? I recently saw a reference from a multi-column rum factory that they pull off 1 liter of fusels per 1,000 liters TA. I don't remember the solubility of fusels in water/ethanol exactly, but as a SWAG let's say it's upwards of 20% before it separates (the liquid phase separation is what causes the scary flash boil disruptions). At 20% of the 200l reboiler you could hold 40 liters of fusels, if they will stay there. Which would require a continuous production of 40,000 liters TA before you hit that point. Assume you are flushing some, collecting some, and reacting some and you can probably fill.... 400 barrels? before exceeding my made up but plausible fusel capacity limit :D

LW, Now that you're in the continuous game, one thing I don't think I've ever gotten a straight answer to is, what does big bourbon do with their doubler / thumper bottoms? The tour guides look at you like you have 3 heads if you ask. All the literature says that the point of the doubler is to catch fusels. But details like the actual operational policy at Wild Turkey seems to be a mystery. Do they periodically dump it? Steady overflow drain? To waste or recycle? Recycle where? When? Scotch columns are very well documented, rum columns are basically fuel plants, but the bourbon folks just want us to look at their columns and squeal, then hit the gift shop.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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@ Zapata, I'm not really sure what the big whiskey houses do with their thumper juice?
I suspect its distributed evenly through out every bottle with the exception of went down the drain when they open the system for scheduled PM lol.
And I wager a large percentage for heads is truly vented off as vapor. How else they gonna feed that black mold all round yonder lol.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that the top of the beer column temp could be matched with thumper temps.
Only that there is a latitude for temp adjustment for the beer column as well as the reboiler. Temps will always be lower down stream.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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The last time I had a beer with Ian Smiley (we both lived in Ottawa for years), he told me that tails and fusels get sold to perfume houses who isolate them, probly modify them and use them in their blends.

I've never had a PID before but I'm researching to purchase one, maybe ya'll can help.
Rather than controlling my pump speed, I want to control flow rate with a belimo brand floating point valve like i used at my last job. I have one installed now running on manual, and I want to control it based on wash temperature in the wash preheater path.

My electronics knowledge is quite limited, but from what I read, this is an ideal application for a PID?

Here's the unit I'm looking at:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/113900157868?ul_noapp=true

It outputs analog 4-20mA, which will communicate with the belimo:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... KoAn6wCgQD

and then I think I wire up the belimo to 24VDC to power it.

I'm just not sure if I'm going to knocking my head against a wall trying to program the pid and looking at a shit chinese instruction manual. Suggestions?
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by LWTCS »

Screenshot_20201025-103823_Gallery.jpg
Sorry I don't have a qualified recommendation on the PID.
Been using these so far. No issues.


Yeah controlling flow rate means that you can probably get away with less money on your pumping solution.

We use the head temp of the beer column to govern feed rate/pump speed because can control that better than trying to control beer feed temps by harvesting parasitic heat from the HXs.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by LWTCS »

You're probably super busy at work and all.
But could you give that diagram one more shot at incorporating a bit more detail? Its just,,,,,scribbly enough to be a little confusing.

Maybe put some numbers next to the process components with a corresponding legend? If you see my meaning?

I promise not to steal any of your concepts (please consider this an NDA. Lol.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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Ha, my lawyer says keep it shitty and confusing, just like when youre writing a patent.

Numbers? Like heights? Or you mean labels?

I can try, but I can't even draw with a pencil much less a mouse.

You've got the flow paths, what else interests you?
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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I'll mark it up tomorrow when I get back to the shop. That way you'll only need to respond to my numbered questions.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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Actually I wouldn't mind drawing the thing in 3D for a better view of your plan.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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YOU want to draw it? Cool!

Does this help?
Image


No? I didn't think so, haha.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by The Baker »

Evil,
I've got a stainless fitting pretty much like yours on the left of the picture.
It was a filter housing from a milking machine.
Still deciding what I can do with it.

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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by Evil Wizard »

Hey Baker, a stainless fitting like what? a 6" diameter spool? The one that's 12" high?

They make good kettles for tiny test batches if you get the right fittings to slot in an element and connect a 2" column at the top.

Else wrap a 100 feet of 3/8" copper coil in it and use it as a PC, put it on legs though.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

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Some questions
Evil Wizard Questions.png
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by Evil Wizard »

The green figure is an undersized dephlagmator in 1/4" coil.
The squiggly loop represents an electrical heating element. I thought that one was universal.

The circles are 2" ferrules.

I emailed you.
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Re: Heating wattage for 6 inch column

Post by The Baker »

Evil Wizard wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:08 pm Hey Baker, a stainless fitting like what? a 6" diameter spool? The one that's 12" high?

They make good kettles for tiny test batches if you get the right fittings to slot in an element and connect a 2" column at the top.

Else wrap a 100 feet of 3/8" copper coil in it and use it as a PC, put it on legs though.
Evil,
It is a heavy stainless tube about four inches internally and twenty-seven inches high.
There are what I think are called dairy fittings top and bottom. Heavy stainless screw fittings with a bit of rod welded to either side to make them easy to remove by hand. With a blank end plate that is held on by the screw fitting.
Bottom end plate has a small tube (half an inch or less) with a drain tap.
Top end plate has a couple of inches of one and one eighth (inside) stainless tube.
And near the bottom a similar short tube is welded to the side.
I got it for ten or fifteen Australian dollars at a farm auction.
It is pretty and it is useful, just not sure what for.
But I am setting up another (electric) still (pot, for the time being) so maybe...

Geoff
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