Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Any hardware used for mashing, fermenting or aging.

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NormandieStill
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Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by NormandieStill »

This post is a little long. I understand entirely if folks decide that they can't be bothered to read it!

My current fermenting setup is based on my home brewing of (primarily) wine and extract beer kits. I have two 30L food grade buckets with tight sealing lids but badly fitted grommets that leak so much the airlocks don't work and plastic taps with bulkhead fittings that leak if not cranked down tight. And four 20L food grade buckets that I bought later and drilled my own holes in. I also have 6 5L glass demi-johns that are used for bulk-ageing wine or storing low-wines. My boiler is a 30L keg so for a flavoured spirit I really want to making about 90L of wash and for a neutral I need closer to 150L. My free time is not unlimited, and is largely in the evenings.

I have a second 30L keg which has had a large (28cm diameter) hole cut in the bottom and is used as a mash tun. I have a stainless butterfly valve that I can stick on the bottom to make it easy to drain into one of my fermenters.

Having inadvertantly read the standards on chemical migration from food-grade plastics (Plastics and Mashing) I would like to eliminate plastics from my brewing setup.

Which leaves me with two avenues at the minute (both of these are for a bit later as I don't yet have a dedicated space for brewing and distilling).

Option 1: A set of 30L kegs, set up as per my mash tun (but probably with just blanking plates instead of valves to keep the costs down). I imagine a rack on the wall (like a shelf with cutouts) onto which they sit allowing me to gravity drain them once fermentation is complete. With some everlasting gaskets and the right saucepan lids I can probably even make them air-tight for fitting air-locks. I figured I could use the cutouts from the bottom as filters by drilling a lot of small holes (not my idea, but I like it) and putting them inside over the drain hole. This way I can ferment on the grain and then drain off the bulk of the liquid at the end before removing the grain and squeezing it. A set of four such kegs would probably allow me to keep enough ferments going that I can always strip when I have the time without having to worry about a completed ferment.

Pros:
  • Being stainless they're easy to clean and won't harbour flavours or beasties that could impact future runs.
  • I have a source about an hours drive that could provide me with the kegs for a not excessive sum of money.
  • Shiny and pretty!
  • A full 30L keg can still be moved if necessary. They can be stored off the ground which liberates floor space.
Cons:
  • It ties me to a multiple of 30L. If I ever upgrade my boiler to say a 50L keg then my fermenting system becomes unwieldy as it will take 1.5 ferments to make a boiler charge.
Option 2: A wooden barrel. For about the same price as one of the second hand 30L kegs I can get a 200L cider barrel. This may need some modification to make it functional (cutout in the top, cork in the fill port which looks to be on the side). Obviously I need to make sure that it is a) watertight and b) not rotten! I can use SOCD's large batch mashing technique with this, with the wood adding to the insulating power which should make it easy to hold temperatures. Once a batch is finished fermenting I can always transfer into buckets if I'm worried about an infection before finishing the stripping runs.

Pros:
  • More efficient wash / mash preparation. While it may take slightly longer to set-up than a 30L batch, the total time should be less than for 3 or 4 individual kegs
  • Cheap... like less than 1/4 of the price.
  • It's wood. I'm a carpenter. I like wood. Available in oak or chestnut.
Cons:
  • Heavy. The barrel itself is going to be relatively weighty. It'll have to have a dedicated space in my future brewshed (which is going to be pretty cramped already). If I need to get it outside to clean it then that's a whole project right there.
  • It commits me to one project at a time (this is not necessarily a bad thing, but doesn't really line-up with the way my mind works).
  • While not unsanitary, we're at the polar opposite of stainless steel here. A good wash out with a pressure washer should clean it up fairly well but a barrel is a good breeding ground for beasties.
  • To prevent drying and to limit infections I will need to commit to keeping a project on the go at all times. While I like a good tipple, I'm not that heavy a drinker.
So I'm currently pretty split between the two options. I did have a nice compromise for a third option. I can get a stainless steel 200L barrel for about the same price as the four kegs but I either have to drive the length of the country to get it, or pay (probably the same amount again) in shipping costs. This would be a stainless barrel like an oil drum which needs the lid removing to make it usable. Essentially an easily cleanable version of option 2 but a fairly pricey investment. As I write this though, I think that I really should query the shipping cost.

Well done if you read this far! Thanks for making the effort. :D

Does anyone have any pros / cons that I've not thought of? Anyone out there tested one of these options (especially interested to hear from wooden barrel users regarding cleaning protocols / infections or flavour carry-over)?
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Re: Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by shadylane »

My suggestion.
Food grade plastic is good for fermenting in.
I'd pick stainless for mashing. The plastic was never meant for mashing temps.
With a 30L boiler, I'd prefer multiple 30L fermenters.
And a 50L SS keg set up for using steam from the 30L boiler, for mashing and stripping.
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Re: Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by NormandieStill »

shadylane wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:47 pm My suggestion.
Food grade plastic is good for fermenting in.
I'd pick stainless for mashing. The plastic was never meant for mashing temps.
With a 30L boiler, I'd prefer multiple 30L fermenters.
And a 50L SS keg set up for using steam from the 30L boiler, for mashing and stripping.
Further reading shows that to be marked as food safe in the EU, a plastic storage container must not show migration (that crosses a certain threshold) with a 10% ethanol solution at 40°C for 10 days. Which would seem to more-or-less match fermentation. The rules had changed in 2012 and I think the document I had read before was referencing the old tests which didn't include ethanol. Interestingly the EU guidelines do not allow for any plastic container which could contain ethanol at 20% or 50%, which sort of reinforces the position that HD has taken.

Given this, I think I'll be placing an order for some 33L buckets (to give me a bit of extra headroom for on-grain ferments) and sticking with my 30L stainless mash tun. Thanks for your input.

The 50L keg is a pipe dream. While 30L kegs are available relatively locally, I'd be ordering a brand new 50L keg from abroad. I think the French just don't drink that much beer!
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Re: Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by Stircrazy »

can you get 50L stainless kegs? also do you make the same mash over and over (or resonably simular) a large wood fermenter to me is more suited when you have your recipies dialed in and are going to keep it relitivly the same as the yeast and such will get into the pours of the wood and influence your next batch and help to develop that signature flavor. also with the larger size for a single batch you are going to have to strip like a mad man when the batch is ready and end up with anywhere from 10 to 20+L of alchol so if you strip to 20% you could be doing up to 3 spirit runs off a batch.

if you knock it down to using 50L kegs to build your set up then for now you could just fill them to the 30L mark and later if you go bigger on the still you can use more of the capacity. I am building one right now using 50L kegs for my 50L still which will alow me to do up to 3 50L fermentations at once so I can do three stripping runs and one spirit run per batch, but if I want to play with a new recipe I can just do one batch between 20 and 50L and run that using one fermenter.

Steve
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Re: Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by NormandieStill »

Stircrazy wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 am can you get 50L stainless kegs? also do you make the same mash over and over (or resonably simular) a large wood fermenter to me is more suited when you have your recipies dialed in and are going to keep it relitivly the same as the yeast and such will get into the pours of the wood and influence your next batch and help to develop that signature flavor. also with the larger size for a single batch you are going to have to strip like a mad man when the batch is ready and end up with anywhere from 10 to 20+L of alchol so if you strip to 20% you could be doing up to 3 spirit runs off a batch.
I have trouble enough getting 30L ones. I can get 50L kegs, but they're new and shipped from the Czech republic... and somewhat pricey. My thought with the barrel was not necessarily to fill it to capacity each time, but to at least be able to produce decent sized washes / mashes for neutral. For a pot stilled neutral, from my limited experience, I need to do at least four, maybe five or six washes in order to get a decent amount in the still for a spirit run. I can comfortably do a 25L stripping run in an evening, so that's a week of "work", but it's doable. Especially as this is in a theoretical future where I have a dedicated space, so I don't have set-up and strip down times to worry about. Just a little clean up at the end.
Stircrazy wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 am if you knock it down to using 50L kegs to build your set up then for now you could just fill them to the 30L mark and later if you go bigger on the still you can use more of the capacity. I am building one right now using 50L kegs for my 50L still which will alow me to do up to 3 50L fermentations at once so I can do three stripping runs and one spirit run per batch, but if I want to play with a new recipe I can just do one batch between 20 and 50L and run that using one fermenter.

Steve
That's basically what I was looking at doing. I still like the idea of a series of keg fermenters. I'm going to try and drill the cutout from my current mash tun to see if I can make a false bottom. Then I'll see if I can't squeeze directly in the mash tun by letting it drain naturally and then putting some weights on a board on top of the grain. Squeezing out grains has proven very to be very time consuming, messy and uncomfortable (I currently do it leaning over the bath and it's killing my back!).
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Re: Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by Deplorable »

I've tried the press method you're talking about, and wasn't as successful as I'd hoped. I ended up with a mop wringer.
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Re: Mashing and fermenting setup (scaling up)

Post by NormandieStill »

Deplorable wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:51 am I've tried the press method you're talking about, and wasn't as successful as I'd hoped. I ended up with a mop wringer.
OK. I'll make the false bottom, but if it's not going to work I'll just use it for lautering beer.
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