conical fermenters built

[rednose]

I’m gonna built conical fermenters in stainless.

I have two options, a high vessel with lower cone angle or a lower vessel with larger diameter and wider cone.

What would you prefer and why?

Joe

[MuleKicker]

Dammit rednose, i envy your setup. I would go with the second one. i think wider is better, more area for stuff to drop and it wont have to drop as far as a high narrow vessel. There are probably pros/cons to each design. I like the turb drain on the bottom and a higher up mash drain. (I assume anyway?) I built a fermenter out of a plastic 50gal drum and put the mash drain about 4" off the bottom, so when its all settled out i can drain the wash no prob.

[rednose]

Right, it has a liquid take off at about 25cm above the end of the cone (grain outlet).

It's planned also a 1/4" sample take off in the upper part, I don't want to move the lid during the fermentation.

I have to add that my laboratory is only 2.50 m high.

The fermenter size is calculated for one batch (run) each.

[LWTCS]

Joe,

I have a few narrow vessels that I use to rack with. These vessels are easier for me to keep the trub isolated from the liquid when transfering to either my boiler or another holding containter.

I am thinking the deeper, more narrow cone section with a narrow cylinder will allow for much less bottom turbulance when drawing your wash down. Thus allowing for a cleaner withdraw of your liquid as the trub settles.

A take off port for wash above the inverted cone and a dump valve at the base of the inverted cone to hose/clean out.

Don't know if this kind of more narrow vessel will affect the quality of your ferments.

Edit:
Good points by mule.

[rednose]

Thanks for your input Larry.

What I could observe so far is that some companies which sell fermenters make wine vessels large and beer vessels lower.

I couldn't figger out the reason though.

Loading grains in a UJSSM for instance would be a hard exercise in high vessels.

Joe

[LWTCS]

How many fermenters are you going to build Joe?

Certainly you have to think about the work involved within the entire process.

Maybe a test build?

[rednose]

To feed both stills for 5 working days I would need 10 vessels as the fermentation takes about 5 days to dry.

I usually drain the wash and have it 2 to 3 days clearing up in another plastic foodgrade vessels.

I don't need all of them right now but yes in the near future so at this moment I will built two and see how it works out.

There is an additional problem with the built which is foodgrade polishing inside the vessel to avoid baterial infection, an infection can drive out very expensive in this ferment dimension.

Joe

[cob]

Loading grains in a UJSSM for instance would be a hard exercise in high vessels.

a stainless grain auger would save your back. cob

[myerfire]

I would copy the design of conical beer fermenters. There is also a degree of angle of the cone part, if the angle is not steep enough, the trub doesn't fall all the way to the bottom dump valve and that would defeat the purpose of using a conical. My conical beer fermenter also has a rotating racking arm that can be rotated so you only draw off the clear stuff and leave the trub below the racking arm.
myerfire

[myerfire]

I don't know if this site will be of any help, but here it is
http://www.toledometalspinning.com/products/hoppers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Also I think the magical number for the degree of pitch is 60.
myerfire

[LWTCS]

Nice link M. Thanx.
Why, I wonder is that angle preferable.

[rednose]

I know 'em, found it while searching the net for conical fermenters but importing one hopper with lid + shipping makes the same as building three fermenters here.

You see this 60 angle pitch very often, looks like the yeast loves to make exercise on that.

I don't know if this site will be of any help, but here it is
http://www.toledometalspinning.com/products/hoppers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Also I think the magical number for the degree of pitch is 60.
myerfire

[rubber duck]

Why would you want a conical fermenter for whiskey? For that matter why would you want one for ale? I'm of the opinion that conical fermenters are nothing more then expensive toys to harvest substandard yest with. If your going to lager their worth while, but for anything else why? The best ale yeast comes from the top, if it where me I wouldn't build it.

[rednose]

..... if it where me I wouldn't build it.

Thanks RD, now we have a third option.

Without the cone the built would be much easier/cheaper and I could built a tilt vessel rack instead.

Now to the other pros: what do ya think about RD's comment? Is it really needed to have a conical fermenter for distilling purpose wash?

I have to sleep about all that.

[rednose]

I've sent Dnder a PM asking him for his opinion, he's a very wise man with lots of experience and his opinion is always important for me.

He let me know that as long as the fermenter can be handled and is not stationary it can have a flat buttom as it's easy to clean.

That is my case and I'm with a new design now which has a mobile/tilt rack instead which I'd like to discuss.

A great advantage is that I could use it as a mashtun as well.

It'll have an optional false buttom, 1"drain valve in the side buttom and a sample valve on 2/3 of the lenght.

Thanks all for the participation, many good heads think better than one alone.

Joe

[ScottishBoy]

I had always thought that conical fermentors didnt really reach an effective payback until you started into industrial portions. Much easier to just sluice out the bottom when your dealing with 14,000 gallons than to siphon off to another tank, but for the hobbyist this seems a little overkill. I also had always understood the angle to be product for both ease of cleaning and the needed angle to get the settlings through the bottom valve. I heard that wine columns were higher and more narrow to put more pressure on settlings to get them past the valve, where as beer didnt need that much.

Been wrong before. If I am please enlighten me.

Exactly how much liquid are we talking here?

[Dnderhead]

hes doing 50gal/200l ferments, if done with a flat bottom, he can "cook" then ferment in same vat,with out transferring then with a drain valve he can then drain off beer and then dump lees.it just needs to be high enough to dump into whatever he using for carting away the lees. similar to tippy dump that they have for beer. if it were hundred gallons (400l) then a sloped bottom whould be a better choice. this is if he is doing on the grain,if not the same setup could be used but he mite/whould need a pump to transfer the beer , stacking (to use gravity )whould be out of the question as it whould become to high .
sound ok?

[ScottishBoy]

Makes perfect sense to me. That volume lies in that sort of grey area, not exactly practicall to do it by hand, but not fully commited to really large runs. Practically speaking the tippy idea rocks pretty hard since you can cook and draw from the same container. Sure would be nice to just slide a burner underneath and steam away...then move on to the next one. You just need a stable framework that can support a lot of stress and a combined weight of over 500 pounds. Sounds like a good job for tubular stainless or even I or L rail. We ran into a similar problem when we constructed a trebuchet with a friend. Barrel kept tipping.

No offense. If I came off like I was prying, Im not. I was just asking questions because I am a very curious person and I have a little experience with fluid engineering. ( Read very little )

I would love to see pictures of this after it is done.

SB

[rednose]

I need minimum 230Ltr for one whiskey run (I don't strip, just run once with the new stills), that means that I would need a 260 Ltr lauter/mash tun (30Ltr open space at least) plus the space that the grain ocupies.

That's why my total always was about a 300 Ltr vessels.

I really love the idea to mash and ferment in the same vessel, it makes work easier and less atractive for bacteria.

Actually I'm trying to get the best economy out of the SS sheets for the cuts.

Joe

[Dnderhead]

may be just use as a fermenter, but when making it leave room for burner etc. then at some later date you can convert with out making it over.

[LWTCS]

Sorry for being off topic but, Dnder, have you ever run a sub?

I can see the merits in reducing material handling with the sub. But I have read that the quality of the hooch is less than stellar. Would ya need a steam outfit to maximize any kind of quality what with all the fixins in the boiler?

[Dnderhead]

yes but that is just the shape of boiler, but you don't need one to do on the grain distilling,some is still done on the grain and that is the basses of sour mash
next time you see pitchers of stills look and see if it has a motor on top side, if it does it is made for on the grain distilling.that just saves stirring.witch was "kids work" then if you did not stir enough you were lowered into the still after to clean it. FUN....next time you'd stir till your arms fall off.

[eviljesus]

I believe that height effects the brew due to temperatures and the like, to the point of where you can have multiple ferments and fluid currents going at different levels of the fermentation tank giving you possibly strange brew characteristics.

Im trying to find the research and linkage to back it up, when i do, i'll post it back here. Maybe something to keep in mind if applicable to you.

Edit: found it:
http://homedistiller.org/wash/ferment/size" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Under the heading: Fermentation Tank Hydraulics - Excerpt by Jack.

Jack writes ...

Traditionally, shallow, open, "wading pool" shaped fermenters were the most common found in old breweries/distilleries. Due to space concerns, "unitanks" (sealed on top, with a conical bottom and a valve to separate trub and yeast) have taken over, as they provide a more sheltered enviroment that, being tall rather than wide, allows companies to expand production at a fraction of usual expansion costs. After testing various fermenter shapes, it was found that the effective height (that which is actually filled) of the fermenter should be less than the fermenter's diameter. A few industrial studies show why this is so. In 1978 it was found that carbon dioxide gradients were present- the largest values being at the bottom of the fermenter. This caused s heterogeneous flow field that included isolated vortices. The maximum vortex formation was found at the top of the fermenter, which influenced temperature, sugar concentration, and Ph- effectively, tall fermenters have not one, but several fermentations taking place in parallel.

In order to counter this effect, the best method is to use a stirring device within the fermenter, or to recirculate a small amount of the mash (maybe 5 to 7% of the total volume).

Why was this done? Because short/wide fermenters work markedly better than tall ones. Check the numbers:

Tall fermenter Short/wide fermenter
Fermentation time: 10 days 8 days
Final gravity: 1.010 1.011
Diacetyl (mg/L) 0.350 0.060
Clearing poor excellent
pH at end point 4.6 4.4


The lower pH will provede a greater stability in the mash/beer during storage/secondary fermentation/ clarifying procedures. Blind tastings have also shown that the short fermenter in an "open fermenter" form (a large stainless steel stockpot with the lid on instead of an airlock) made for a cleaner, better tasting beer/mash. For large industrial concerns, closed unitank fermenters are a good business idea. For home brewers/distillers using a large (7 gallon) stainless steel stockpot with a lid gives you a great fermenter (even compared to carboys- just watch the sanitation in the surrounding area), that will give a faster ferment and a faster clearing time. That alone reccomends it for distiller-only hobbyists, but the flavor improvementsalso make it worthwhile. Remember, a still will not make a bad mash taste good- it will only make it taste stronger. As a result of this info, I now brew my beer (and bourbon) in an open fermenter. And I'm drinking/distilling it 2 days faster as a result.

[ScottishBoy]

Excellent linkage. So if I am understanding this correctly, the people using wider, lower containers ( such as coolers for example) might be getting faster, better ferments than say a glass carboy? I hadnt actually thought about it before but the gradient in C02 concentrations up a tall fermenter would cause variations. They mention vortices. Im wondering if the concentration of yeast in a conical bottom might not create a sort of donut shaped flow pattern.

Thinking about my next ferment in a kiddie pool...

[rednose]

Good read, thanks for the link jesus.

[quote="eviljesus"]I Edit: found it:
http://homedistiller.org/wash/ferment/size" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
[quote]