accelerated aging process

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accelerated aging process

Postby buckfity6 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:39 pm

For aging I use a method that dramatically speeds up the process, I use Hungarian or American white oak cubes, I put my likker in 1.9 litre mason jars, I heat it up for 24 hours and cool it down for 24 hours, this is equivalent to 1 year in a barrel, after heating, open the jar to let it breathe also again after the cold period, the amount of time to do this, we'll that depends on your tase buds, stop when the desired taste is achieved, I recommend tasting after the cold period for obvious reasons, but maybe I should clarify, hot likker is fumey and hot! Lol, differnt temperature will give you differnt flavors.


Cheers buckfity6

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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:34 pm

quote: " this is equivalent to 1 year in a barrel"
Really? Then I would have to ask, why hasn't anyone else figured it out. There are thousands of distilleries and thousands of chemists that have not accomplished this. And also thousands of members on here with a combined experience of thousands of years.
Granted, this "accelerated" process can replicate to some degree a faux aged whiskey. Many of us here have done similar experiments with results that replicate whiskey, but in no way matches the chemistry of true aging. The chemical bonds that take place in an aged barrel or oaked whiskey over time in my opinion cannot be replicated by heating or nuking without substantial aging. With all due respect, just saying it does not make it so.

Here are some very good reads as to the process of aging, both "accelerated" and long term.

Nuclear Whiskey / Nuclear Rum and Spirits Rapid Ageing
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=38991

Aging... in Barrels of Non-traditional Volume
Postby buflowing » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:29 pm
John D. E. Jeffery's masters thesis, Michigan State University, titled AGING OF WHISKEY SPIRITS IN BARRELS OF NON-TRADITIONAL VOLUME.
http://etd.lib.msu.edu/islandora/object ... mz0P356BMg
A fascinating read. Enjoy.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby Hillbilly Popstar » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:19 pm

I'd also like to know where the 24 hours = a year comes from.
Especially since you offered no insight into the heating methods or temperature.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby still_stirrin » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:33 pm

I also age in glass with wood, placing the jars in the furnace room where it gets very warm (90*F). I leave the jars in the furnace room for a week and then move them to a cool spot in the basement for a week. I repeat this hot/cool cycle for months in an attempt to replicate the environment in the barrel houses. It does help take the edge off of the spirit and it will help the whiskey color quickly.

But alas, age is age...and the liquor truly comes into its goodness with 6 months to a year aging. There is no substitute for time...regardless how anxious you may be. It may be "good" after 48 hours, but it will be "great" after a year or more.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby freaky_cutout » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:11 pm

buckfity6 wrote:For aging I use a method that dramatically speeds up the process, I use Hungarian or American white oak cubes, I put my likker in 1.9 litre mason jars, I heat it up for 24 hours and cool it down for 24 hours, this is equivalent to 1 year in a barrel, after heating, open the jar to let it breathe also again after the cold period, the amount of time to do this, we'll that depends on your tase buds, stop when the desired taste is achieved, I recommend tasting after the cold period for obvious reasons, but maybe I should clarify, hot likker is fumey and hot! Lol, differnt temperature will give you differnt flavors.


Cheers buckfity6

oak_aromatoast.gif



Hmmm, I was just a bit curious as to how a picture of how to toast oak to get different flavour profiles relates to 48h = year ageing? Although I can see the connection between the ideas, the venture seems somewhat sketchy to me. Do you think you could elaborate for our collective enlightenment?
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby Paulinka » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:09 am

buckfity6 wrote:this is equivalent to 1 year in a barrel

I've seen that episode of Moonshiners too. It's an entertaining TV-show, nothing more.
The picture you inserted is how different flavours can be converted in oak while heating the oak, it is not about heating spirits.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby buckfity6 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:11 am

You are heating the oak, the only difference is the oak is on the likker not the other way around, the 24 and 24 is 48 hours equels 1 year, don't bitch or hate on me for trying to help people out! I've been making shine for over 28 years so.... try it and see!!!

Ps. It all has to do with winter and summer, this is the idea of aging in barrels, agreed time is better, but this method works extremely well. I would drink my whiskey over any store bought shit any day.

Also I do not condone microwaves, slowly heat it up by sitting it by a wood stove or a heater, also don't just take it off the heat and put it in the freezer let it cool down first.

Heating the likker is heating the oak guys.
And remember Popcorn said fuck you. Lol
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:11 am

buckfity6 wrote:You are heating the oak, the only difference is the oak is on the likker not the other way around, the 24 and 24 is 48 hours equels 1 year, don't bitch or hate on me for trying to help people out! I've been making shine for over 28 years so.... try it and see!!!

Ps. It all has to do with winter and summer, this is the idea of aging in barrels, agreed time is better, but this method works extremely well. I would drink my whiskey over any store bought shit any day.

Also I do not condone microwaves, slowly heat it up by sitting it by a wood stove or a heater, also don't just take it off the heat and put it in the freezer let it cool down first.

Heating the likker is heating the oak guys.
And remember Popcorn said fuck you. Lol


We certainly don't hate you. And we respect your opinions. Sorry, if you feel we are piling on, don't take it personal. You are going against the flow of conventional wisdom here, so if you post something like this, expect to have the debate. We are just hashing / debating what has been debated on here adnauseum. This is a collective community and we want facts and truth for all. We have already agreed that this method, which is only another heating method.....does impart oak flavor. Many of us have done it in varying degrees with satisfactory results. I do it sometimes when I need something to drink right now. Here is the point of contest. Once we can agree that we are only flavoring with oak or whatever other wood, then we have arrived at an understanding. On the other hand, full bodied whiskey is NOT accomplished in 48 hrs. The science is just not there, nor is the taste, experience for many expert tasters. I have provided scientific studies which back it up my position. There are many more. But hey, my opinion is exactly worth what you paid for it. :thumbup:
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby Hillbilly Popstar » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:31 am

Furthermore you posted that chart as if it's relevant. Well setting your jars next to a fire or heater will not heat the wood to 350-400 degrees. Much less do it for 24 hours.

As a matter of fact, nothing in the whiskey will get any hotter than the boil temp of the liquid without 100% of the liquid first boiling off.

So say your mixture has a boiling point of say 190 degrees...
What's the chart say about oak just below that? Oakey.
What if we want the vanilla and toasty notes?
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby buckfity6 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:37 pm

Thank you for your replies, I don't take criticism very well I suppose. Lol, just to answer a few questions or reply to commets, I myself do not just leave it by the heat, I put it by the heat to warm it up slowly then I put it directly on the heat, I open it up every once in a while to let some of the pressure off. This is canada so our winters are quite long so I use my base board heater to do this which is electric heat, I get a distinct vanella almost a caramel aroma when I do it this way, which suits me just fine because I am a crown royal fan, I use the sweet feed recipe so it is smooth with a distinct corn flavor. If you are intersted in my methods of making white whiskey from sweet feed check out the post that I wrote last night under the sweet feed section, I always get 150 proof or 75 % to start and sometimes higher, at Christmas I had a batch at 84% this caused me great excitement, hahaha. I hope that my knowledge can help out others and I am very happy to answer questions. I'm not saying that I know it all but I do have alot of tricks.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:04 pm

Expressing viewpoints is not necessarily criticism. Pointing out someones lack of knowledge on a subject may be considered criticism if that person is not able to see it. But, inevitably the goal is to get to the truth. Our goal is to help each other understand all aspects of our hobby in a kind, respectful way.

That graph that you posted at the beginning of your post has been posted on here many, many times for many years. Do you know where it came from? Here is a very educational link.....it is the link where that graph originated and an extensive study from some very knowledgeable folks and studies on the whole process of maturation. I for one am humbled and know that I may never reach that degree of knowledge but will continue to be open to all ideas that I may learn and grow in this hobby.

This is the link to this 3 part series: the graph is on part 2 of the series:
http://www.drinkingcup.net/understandin ... our-casks/
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby FuelMaker » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:57 am

GrassHopper wrote:Aging... in Barrels of Non-traditional Volume
Postby buflowing » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:29 pm
John D. E. Jeffery's masters thesis, Michigan State University, titled AGING OF WHISKEY SPIRITS IN BARRELS OF NON-TRADITIONAL VOLUME.
http://etd.lib.msu.edu/islandora/object ... mz0P356BMg
A fascinating read. Enjoy.


That was an awesome read, thanks for the link! I'm not even making whiskeys and it was still a worthwhile read.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby buckfity6 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:49 pm

Thanks guys truly enjoyed reading those articles.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:04 pm

buckfity6 wrote:Thanks guys truly enjoyed reading those articles.


Your welcome buckfity6,
Good luck to ya and thanks for posting.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby skow69 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:39 pm

GrassHopper wrote:This is the link to this 3 part series: the graph is on part 2 of the series:
http://www.drinkingcup.net/understandin ... our-casks/


Good read. Thanks, Hop. Did you notice in Part 2 they cited our parent site under sources? I think we tend to discount it because some of the info is outdated, but it is nice to see someone from "outside" recognize what a fantastic recourse it is. The amount of information that Tony and pals assembled there is amazing, even more so when you remember it was 2002! Hats off to Tony Ackland. Let's all hit the Donate button.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 pm

skow69 wrote:
GrassHopper wrote:This is the link to this 3 part series: the graph is on part 2 of the series:
http://www.drinkingcup.net/understandin ... our-casks/


Good read. Thanks, Hop. Did you notice in Part 2 they cited our parent site under sources? I think we tend to discount it because some of the info is outdated, but it is nice to see someone from "outside" recognize what a fantastic recourse it is. The amount of information that Tony and pals assembled there is amazing, even more so when you remember it was 2002! Hats off to Tony Ackland. Let's all hit the Donate button.


Yeah, Skow I did notice that in part 2. One of the links didn't work, but the one to the Parent site did. I have scoured through this site numerous times simply because I can't seen to get enough of it. I just love the chemistry and the mystery behind what happens in the process of oaking. These guys hit a homerun with these articles and the referenced studies and contributors and they also referenced us here at HD. That says a lot right there about HD. Hell yeah, hit the donate button. That is a lot of work and some invaluable info and it's free! Know what, HD is free too, and I can't say nuff bout the parent site. There is soooo much there that still holds true. I don't know who Tony Ackland is, but I will sure make an attempt to thank him.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby rad14701 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:20 pm

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:I'd also like to know where the 24 hours = a year comes from.
Especially since you offered no insight into the heating methods or temperature.

Houston, we have a solution to the Chinese related Scotch shortage...!!! 12 Days = 12 Year Scotch... :ebiggrin: Problem solved...!!! :lolno:

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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby T-Pee » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:48 pm

Ummm...Rad? Please remove your tongue from the inside of your cheek. We can't understand a word yer sayin'. :ewink:

tp
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:56 pm

T-Pee wrote:Ummm...Rad? Please remove your tongue from the inside of your cheek. We can't understand a word yer sayin'. :ewink:

tp


Simple T-Pee, Scotch shortage can be solved in no time because of fantastic new accelerated aging process.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby Hillbilly Popstar » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:12 pm

So for every bottle of 40 day old scotch we send them they'll send a bottle of 40 year old scotch back to us?
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby rad14701 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:41 am

For those not up on current events, there is a growing Scotch shortage due to Chinas newfound love of that spirit, and possibly others... So distillery forecasting of supply and demand has been drastically miscalculated, thus creating a shortage... And we all know what happens when demand outpaces supply... There is an active topic on the subject...
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby T-Pee » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:08 am

Oh, I understood the original comment. I just enjoy oppotuities to poke Rad. :lolno:

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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby buckfity6 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:19 pm

I get the whole nuclear whiskey thing, j just don't understand why people think it's better to heat it fast as compared to a slow even rate.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:04 pm

Yeah me either... the guy that came up with that idea must have really been fukin nutts

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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby jb-texshine » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:17 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby GrassHopper » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:57 am

FullySilenced wrote:Yeah me either... the guy that came up with that idea must have really been fukin nutts

happy stillin,


Yeah, who does that guy think he is anyway? Telling us to put uranium in our drink! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby KYMountainMan » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:17 pm

buckfity6 wrote:For aging I use a method that dramatically speeds up the process, I use Hungarian or American white oak cubes, I put my likker in 1.9 litre mason jars, I heat it up for 24 hours and cool it down for 24 hours, this is equivalent to 1 year in a barrel, after heating, open the jar to let it breathe also again after the cold period, the amount of time to do this, we'll that depends on your tase buds, stop when the desired taste is achieved, I recommend tasting after the cold period for obvious reasons, but maybe I should clarify, hot likker is fumey and hot! Lol, differnt temperature will give you differnt flavors.


Cheers buckfity6

oak_aromatoast.gif



Someone has been watching too much 'Moonshiners' TV. This is a FALSE claim perpetrated by a TV show for entertainment. :D

For a true aging process it has to go through the Hot & Cold cycles of everyday heating and cooling, and it has to be in a breathable container. Wooden barrels breathe!

Here in Kentucky, where 80% of the bourbon consumed in the WORLD is made, the daytime temp can fluctuate as much as 30°F. A 110° rickhouse in the middle of the day might cool down to 50° during the evening, depending on the time of year.

Furthermore, outside humidity and barometric pressure play as important a role as storing in a rickhouse when it comes to aging bourbon. During the summer the humidity here in Kentucky can get up to 80% on a sunny day, and feel like Florida after an afternoon rain. All of these factors play into properly aging bourbon. As an example, why do you think Buffalo Trace keeps 'Warehouse H' on a constant 'sauna like temp and moisture' to rapid age Blanton's bourbon? That's one of the reasons Blanton's tastes like a 12 or 14 year old bourbon when it's actually only around 6 yrs. old!

I hope I taught you a thing or two about bourbon. :wink:
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby corene1 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:46 pm

I would be curious to know how much oak you use per jar of liquor to get the flavor profile you like? Do you like long slender sticks with little end grain or short fat sticks with a lot of end grain exposed. I have found that amount of wood and the amount of end grain exposed makes a big difference in flavor . As far as cycling the temps and letting the jars breath , this is my solution, a toasted oak lid , it lets the whisky breath naturally .
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby KYMountainMan » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:07 pm

corene1 wrote:I would be curious to know how much oak you use per jar of liquor to get the flavor profile you like? Do you like long slender sticks with little end grain or short fat sticks with a lot of end grain exposed. I have found that amount of wood and the amount of end grain exposed makes a big difference in flavor . As far as cycling the temps and letting the jars breath , this is my solution, a toasted oak lid , it lets the whisky breath naturally .
PB290002.JPG



In order to get a true 'barrel experience' you would need to have the lid split in several places to allow the contents to breath. After all, true barrels 'breath' between the staves and not necessarily through the wood. A couple of tiny drilled holes might also do the trick. I'm talking the smallest bit you could find, and then maybe cover it with cheesecloth. After all, you won't be able to simulate a true barrel breathing because the microscopic pathways to the atmosphere aren't there.


All in all, it's a neet experiment ...pun intended.
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Re: accelerated aging process

Postby MDH » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:29 pm

KYMountainMan wrote:
buckfity6 wrote:For aging I use a method that dramatically speeds up the process, I use Hungarian or American white oak cubes, I put my likker in 1.9 litre mason jars, I heat it up for 24 hours and cool it down for 24 hours, this is equivalent to 1 year in a barrel, after heating, open the jar to let it breathe also again after the cold period, the amount of time to do this, we'll that depends on your tase buds, stop when the desired taste is achieved, I recommend tasting after the cold period for obvious reasons, but maybe I should clarify, hot likker is fumey and hot! Lol, differnt temperature will give you differnt flavors.


Cheers buckfity6

oak_aromatoast.gif



Someone has been watching too much 'Moonshiners' TV. This is a FALSE claim perpetrated by a TV show for entertainment. :D

For a true aging process it has to go through the Hot & Cold cycles of everyday heating and cooling, and it has to be in a breathable container. Wooden barrels breathe!

Here in Kentucky, where 80% of the bourbon consumed in the WORLD is made, the daytime temp can fluctuate as much as 30°F. A 110° rickhouse in the middle of the day might cool down to 50° during the evening, depending on the time of year.

Furthermore, outside humidity and barometric pressure play as important a role as storing in a rickhouse when it comes to aging bourbon. During the summer the humidity here in Kentucky can get up to 80% on a sunny day, and feel like Florida after an afternoon rain. All of these factors play into properly aging bourbon. As an example, why do you think Buffalo Trace keeps 'Warehouse H' on a constant 'sauna like temp and moisture' to rapid age Blanton's bourbon? That's one of the reasons Blanton's tastes like a 12 or 14 year old bourbon when it's actually only around 6 yrs. old!

I hope I taught you a thing or two about bourbon. :wink:



As KY has said, there are a large number of variables in the aging process - each has equal importance, and removing one will disrupt the process of aging.

Firstly, the angel's share - also known more commonly as "evaporation"... When alcohol and water evaporate from the barrel, air gradually enters the barrel to replace it. This air can contain traces of odor compounds from outside the barrel (like those from decay on a beach), but more importantly, it fills the barrel with oxygen that will gradually oxidize and assist in the breakdown of compounds from the oak, making new flavors. Air circulation in the warehouse and other factors play a big role in helping this process along as much as possible.

Secondly, it has been pointed out by another member here that esterification - the gradual reaction of acids from the spirit with alcohol - does not, and will not occur as fast as we want it to at relatively warm temperatures. In order to simulate aging for a year, we would have to heat our spirit to at least 60 degrees CELCIUS and hold it there for a week - not a day. This is part ofwhat Bryan Davis at Lost Spirits Distillery does, but it still doesn't replicate aging properly because he has no Angel's Share.

Thirdly, even if you tried to aerate and heat the spirit simultaneously to simulate both chemical aging with heat and angel's share, you will actually take a lot more alcohol and aromas you actually want out of the spirit alongside the harsh compounds you don't want (e.g. aldehydes and acetone).

There really is no perfect way to simulate aging, except to make a nice, warm room, give it good sun exposure, decent airflow and a bit of humidity.
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