"Cold" gelatinization

[Demy]

OK, we all know the history of cooking starches to achieve gelatinization and thus facilitate enzymes. I know there is another system where we add hot water and leave it to steep for a long time. Maybe it's a stupid question but has anyone ever tried a cold infusion of flour especially corn? In other words, by grinding the cereals very finely, leaving them in the mash water for the whole night. I believe in the past I have tried something like this (on a mini lot) but I don't remember the result.

[Setsumi]

i am interested in your result but i think you will only hydrate the starches. even malted starches need higher temps to convert to sugars. i have to admit i do not know the process where plants grow but would think some starches do get converted.... my opinion, your thinking would help hydrating that would help if your grind is course.

[Twisted Brick]

I've thought about it but I think starch granules are insoluble in cold water. Continued heat is required get the granules to absorb water and swell. Only with heat can you destabilize the starch's crystalline structure, leading to loss of birefringence (starch granules' sharp, angular edges), a fancy word for gelatinization. I've read that conversion using enzymes can eventually be completed at room temperature, it just takes a really long time.

[still_stirrin]

Demy,

If a round wheel rolls, then why try to make a “square wheel” roll?

In other words...”if it ain’t broken, there’s nothing to fix”.
ss

[bluedog]

I'd think, unless you sanitized everything and sealed it, even it did work, by the time you were able to pitch yeast it would have a ton of bacteria to contend with. I think I saw a similar post recently calling mashing a pain. I don't really understand why someone would be so averse to heating something up for an hour when they're gonna have to boil it for 8 hours when it's done fermenting anyways. To me, mashing is where the magic is.

[still_stirrin]

To me, mashing is where the magic is.

+1.

[Demy]

I was very misunderstood, I was not going to skip / replace the mash but to let the starch swell overnight making it more accessible for the mash the next day. Instead of grinding the mash on the same day, for example, we grind the corn the day before and knead it with water, the next day we proceed with the mash. In this way I believe that starch is made much more available. The title of the post is "cold gelatinization" for a reason. I hope now it was clear, otherwise I will try to explain further.

[tombombadil]

Give it a shot and see what happens.

[Demy]

Give it a shot and see what happens.

Of course, this is the quick answer, but I wanted to know if anyone has ever thought about it or any chemistry expert could have their say.

[Setsumi]

for the time that you need yo invest i would suggest the following. boil your mash water, add grain, add enzymes. yes it will work if you hydrate your grains before mashing but it will be more effort.

[Demy]

for the time that you need yo invest i would suggest the following. boil your mash water, add grain, add enzymes. yes it will work if you hydrate your grains before mashing but it will be more effort.

I believe the time is the same (I mean your job). There is always grinding, heating, conversion just done at different times. The reason for my thought (which may seem useless to some) is that I have read that some (to obtain maximum yield) adopt the system of boiling corn (even if malted and therefore destroying the enzymes) or to separate the liquid (rich of enzymes) from the rest. make a decoction by combining the 2 parts. I figured a nighttime break of starches in water might get around this, i.e. you'd have the starches ready for a wort while preserving the enzymes. At the moment I don't use enzymes but only malt, so I think it would help. I don't know the validity of this on a chemical level. I repeat, it is not a question of skipping the mash but only of "preparing" the starches for the conversion work.

[Zeotropic]

for the time that you need yo invest i would suggest the following. boil your mash water, add grain, add enzymes. yes it will work if you hydrate your grains before mashing but it will be more effort.

I believe the time is the same (I mean your job). There is always grinding, heating, conversion just done at different times. The reason for my thought (which may seem useless to some) is that I have read that some (to obtain maximum yield) adopt the system of boiling corn (even if malted and therefore destroying the enzymes) or to separate the liquid (rich of enzymes) from the rest. make a decoction by combining the 2 parts. I figured a nighttime break of starches in water might get around this, i.e. you'd have the starches ready for a wort while preserving the enzymes. At the moment I don't use enzymes but only malt, so I think it would help. I don't know the validity of this on a chemical level. I repeat, it is not a question of skipping the mash but only of "preparing" the starches for the conversion work.

I am interested.
One problem I see is heating a corn water mix is much harder to do without scorching.
I plan to build a steam system at some point and that would make it much easier to try.
Do you use steam or something else?

[Demy]

for the time that you need yo invest i would suggest the following. boil your mash water, add grain, add enzymes. yes it will work if you hydrate your grains before mashing but it will be more effort.

I believe the time is the same (I mean your job). There is always grinding, heating, conversion just done at different times. The reason for my thought (which may seem useless to some) is that I have read that some (to obtain maximum yield) adopt the system of boiling corn (even if malted and therefore destroying the enzymes) or to separate the liquid (rich of enzymes) from the rest. make a decoction by combining the 2 parts. I figured a nighttime break of starches in water might get around this, i.e. you'd have the starches ready for a wort while preserving the enzymes. At the moment I don't use enzymes but only malt, so I think it would help. I don't know the validity of this on a chemical level. I repeat, it is not a question of skipping the mash but only of "preparing" the starches for the conversion work.

I am interested.
One problem I see is heating a corn water mix is much harder to do without scorching.
I plan to build a steam system at some point and that would make it much easier to try.
Do you use steam or something else?

Yes, I can use the steam system I built (jacket), but my question is general, a classic mash but with this variant. I was thinking about corn because it has a large amount of starch. I generally always use an indirect heat source (like a hot plate) and this goes for any wort. With the internal elements I had burns with barley so with corn it would be a bad idea, this I think is always valid, beyond the technique used.