Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

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perfection
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Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by perfection »

Why would the usual procedure be to gelatinize corn and rye grain and use malted barley (i understand about it strong diastatic properties) to saccharify and form the fermentable mash while in the case of barley and wheat it is preferred to use the malting and mashing route to obtain the mash to be fermented? What is the basis of making these decisions?

Sensory-wise would it be very different if corn was cooked and saccharified and versus malted and mashed with its own quota of amylase and supplemented by malted barley?

Do unmalted grains have amylase at all? (or is it all produced during germination?)So if we gelatinize corn will it be totally dependent on the amylase from the malted barley for the saccharification activity (converting starch into fermentable sugars)?

I am a student of Food Science and my teacher was unable to answer these queries convincingly or let me say i have a doubt on the answers he/she rendered and am checking back with experts here. Please do not mind these, not too intelligent queries for what may be obvious for you pros

Thanks

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Getsmokin
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by Getsmokin »

Simple answer, malting cost more money. Malted grains do have a different flavor. Also in countries other than the US, they were taxed by the amount of malt used, so the amount of malt went down over time.
Last edited by Getsmokin on Fri May 07, 2021 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Demy
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by Demy »

I will try to answer, for what I can.
Non-malted cereals generally have no enzymes for the conversion of starch (or rather have someone but insufficient) so we are looking for the way of maltation to develop the enzymes necessary for the conversion process of starches. There are also "synthetic" enzymes that can be used on non-malted cereals (after cooking), so if you use non-malted cereals you have 2 streets: cereals + malt or cereals + synthetic enzymes. The taste is affected to some extent from your choice: for me everything malt is higher than cereals + enzymes in organoleptic terms. The via cereals + enzymes is usually chosen because economic or because you want to give a particular aromatic profile to your product (think of rye, oats etc ...). This is a simplification but I hope i are useful.
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by Windy City »

Malting grains is what creates the natural enzymes.
Unmalted corn needs the high temp gelatinization to break down and open up the starches.
It is very hard to find a producer of malted corn, I have only found one.
https://riverbendmalt.com
Many on this site that have wanted malted corn have learned how to malt it themselves. I am not sure if malted corn has a high enough DP to convert itself during scarification.
Malted rye does not need gelatinizing and should not be brought up to those temps because it will denature the enzymes in the malt.
Rye does benefit from a protein rest (115-120f) to help break down the glucans (slime). Malted rye does have enough natural enzymes to convert itself.
Besides the difference of natural enzymes (malted) or no enzymes (raw) there is also a difference in flavor profile that each of us have to choose based on what flavor profile we want out of our spirit.
Malted rye will come across as spicy, peppercorn, rye bread flavors, where unmalted rye comes across as earthy, and without all the spice zing.
So the two main differences in malted/unmalted is flavor and diastatic power. If using unmalted grains in your mash bill you will either need to add enough malted grains with a high enough diastatic power to convert the whole mash bill or use liquid enzymes for your conversion.
On a side note I plan on mashing 225 pounds of malted rye tomorrow for a straight rye whiskey. :D :D :D

Hope this helped
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BlackStrap
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by BlackStrap »

From my memory in the USA malted corn became illegal to sell...
Windy City wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:22 am I am not sure if malted corn has a high enough DP to convert itself during scarification
Yes dry malted corn will convert itself, green malted corn has enough DP to convert itself and then some (like malted rye, wheat or barley)

Like getsmokin said
malting cost more money. Malted grains do have a different flavor. Also in countries other than the US, they were taxed by the amount of malt used, so the amount of malt went down over time.
For me personally malting corn is a #$% (cooking corn can be as much of a !@# than malting (fixed that with a steam cooker)) That said I have malted rye, wheat and barley, and will use it to convert the gelatinized starches ... The Diastatic Power (DP) of malted wheat and rye are right up there with barley...there are several charts on this forum.


They're are others that can better answer the other reason such as mouth feel and difference in tastes of malted vs raw (unmalted) grains. I do know that raw grains will contribute to mouthfeel and head retention in beer brewing. Hopefully the experts will chime in and clarify
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by JesseMarques »

Malted corn can convert itself, but the yield generally is low because lacks in some enzymes, barley is genetically selected to be malted, corn isn't.
To improve the yield you can mash your malted corn, transfer liquid to other vessel then boil (with enough water) the remaining solids to gelatinize starches that remains unsolved, after some boil, wait it to cool to mash temperature and add back the wort you saved before (it contains enough enzymes to finish mashing). Proceed until iodine test gives you a negative for starch.
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by SmokyMtn »

This might interest you
My 9" Shotgun Condenser


This hobby really is not so much about making alcohol. But bottling opportunities to make memories with Friends and Family.
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by rubberduck71 »

Windy City wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:22 am
On a side note I plan on mashing 225 pounds of malted rye tomorrow for a straight rye whiskey. :D :D :D
WC, can you send some of this to me in Pennsylvanialand???

:D

Duck
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Re: Why is corn and rye alcohol NOT made by malting (rather than gelatinizing) the grain"

Post by Windy City »

rubberduck71 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:22 am
Windy City wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:22 am
On a side note I plan on mashing 225 pounds of malted rye tomorrow for a straight rye whiskey. :D :D :D
WC, can you send some of this to me in Pennsylvanialand???

:D

Duck
I buy my malted Rye local but the Bloody Butcher Bourbon I just made with malted Bloody Butcher Corn comes from Pennsylvania.

https://kmi.8ef.myftpupload.com/product ... lted-corn/

These guys were great to deal with and they also have malted Argentina Orange Corn that I may try next.
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
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