Preparing ex-casks?

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Toxxyc
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Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Toxxyc »

Hi guys,

So I seem to have gotten a bite on a post I made a while ago asking people for their old unused barrels and/or casks. A guy contacted me and said he has two small (looks like 5l or 10l) barrels at his place that used to hold sherry. So, for me, that's absolutely perfect, because I'm a HUGE sucker for an ex-sherry single malt. Obviously the gears are now turning, but before I get too excited I'd like to know how I should prep these barrels for filling.

The guy said they stood filled for a long time, and then empty, and then he filled them with water to keep them sealed and then they dried out again, so I'm not even sure if they'll work. On top of that, they have brass taps and one of the taps are broken, so that will have to be replaced. Otherwise they look to be in great condition - I don't see any cracks or stuff in them, so assuming they're good and seal when I fill them - what is the next step?

I've seen what some people do in the whisky industry is take old barrels and then scrape the inside before re-charring them, but I'm not sure if that would be smart or if I would even be able to open the barrels to get to the inside. So how does one prep these? Fill them with hot water to make sure they seal, but how do you clean them out, if at all? What would be Step 2 after making sure they seal?
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by The Baker »

I have had really bad experience with fortified wine and brass taps.

I would say change them for wood or stainless, definitely.

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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Yeah I got no interest in the taps anyway, I want to replace them just with plain oak plugs. Just need to find some...
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Demy
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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first fill them with water completely to make sure the wood is sealed. Check the interior with a flashlight to make sure there is no mold. Smell the empty barrel to make sure it smells good (bad if it smells like vinegar). This may be enough if the barrel is ok otherwise you have to intervene differently.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Toxxyc »

Demy wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:35 am first fill them with water completely to make sure the wood is sealed. Check the interior with a flashlight to make sure there is no mold. Smell the empty barrel to make sure it smells good (bad if it smells like vinegar). This may be enough if the barrel is ok otherwise you have to intervene differently.
This is what I'm most afraid of, yes. How would I proceed if it's dirty or smelly, for example? Fill it with sanitizer or some kind of cleaner and let it soak? That's basically the questions I want answers to, as all indications point to the fact that they might simply not be fine on the inside anymore.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by CopperFiend »

I'd recommend knocking off the hoops from one end ( should be three per side in a barrel of that size) and that will allow the staves to open, you to get the end off and see inside. Then I'd avoid any sanitiser and just give it a good clean with soapy water, then rinse thoroughly. If you only open one end of the barrel it is pretty easy to get it back together. Get someone to help you get the lid back in as it's a bugger to do by yourself. Drive a small screw into the outside (not all the way through!) To give you a handle to manipulate the lid as you close the staves around it again. Then fill with water until its watertight.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Toxxyc »

OK I got the barrels just now. They're smaller than I expected (one looks to be a 1.8l and the other perhaps a 3l, I'll measure at home), and they are BONE dry. The bigger one looks to be in nicer nick with no visible gaps in the oak, while the smaller one has visible gaps in the oak that I am sure is going to leak like a sieve.

I checked them both out on the inside using a torch and they both look pretty good. They don't smell bad at all, and has an oaky, sherry-ish scent to them. There are visible crystalline deposits on the inside of both, obviously sugar from the wine that was in there. The one has a funny hard thing on the inside, looks like it might have been a pellicle that dried out at some stage, but it's loose and rattling around inside. I have no idea how I'm going to get it out. I'll try to break it down with boiling water first.

So, first steps, get them wet so they can swell, right? I'm planning on sticking them in hot water and insulating them in the hot water for a while. Sound about right?

Perhaps I'll fill the smaller one with the whisky I have aging right now after it's sealed properly. Do a sherry cask finish on the whisky...
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Toxxyc wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:30 pm
Demy wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:35 am first fill them with water completely to make sure the wood is sealed. Check the interior with a flashlight to make sure there is no mold. Smell the empty barrel to make sure it smells good (bad if it smells like vinegar). This may be enough if the barrel is ok otherwise you have to intervene differently.
This is what I'm most afraid of, yes. How would I proceed if it's dirty or smelly, for example? Fill it with sanitizer or some kind of cleaner and let it soak? That's basically the questions I want answers to, as all indications point to the fact that they might simply not be fine on the inside anymore.
The opening of the barrel I would leave it with the latest option .. Here's what I recommend for a barrel with an abnormal smell: a first cleaning with only water, then there are detergents for suitable barrels but you can simply use sodium carbonate, it is suitable for cleaning barrels and In general, containers that will come into contact with food, it does not foam .... it is similar to the action of caustic soda but less aggressive and is not dangerous to handle. Alternatively (or for a very compromised barrel) you could use caustic but attentive soda because dangerous. Here in Italy, some seniors told me that in the past the lime was used as a cleanser and makes sense given its properties. In any case, after the treatment you need to rinse very well (until you get clean water out) and I recommend a passage with citric acid. After that I recommend a "rinsing" with an economic alcohol or a very alcoholic wine.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Toxxyc wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:08 am OK I got the barrels just now. They're smaller than I expected (one looks to be a 1.8l and the other perhaps a 3l, I'll measure at home), and they are BONE dry. The bigger one looks to be in nicer nick with no visible gaps in the oak, while the smaller one has visible gaps in the oak that I am sure is going to leak like a sieve.

I checked them both out on the inside using a torch and they both look pretty good. They don't smell bad at all, and has an oaky, sherry-ish scent to them. There are visible crystalline deposits on the inside of both, obviously sugar from the wine that was in there. The one has a funny hard thing on the inside, looks like it might have been a pellicle that dried out at some stage, but it's loose and rattling around inside. I have no idea how I'm going to get it out. I'll try to break it down with boiling water first.

So, first steps, get them wet so they can swell, right? I'm planning on sticking them in hot water and insulating them in the hot water for a while. Sound about right?

Perhaps I'll fill the smaller one with the whisky I have aging right now after it's sealed properly. Do a sherry cask finish on the whisky...
Fill it in any case of water, sometimes you won't see slits but then your barrel has slight losses. For the other barrel you will have to bathe ... if you can you can immerse it entirely in water otherwise internal / external wet ... for the external advice of the rags keeping them wet ... sometimes it will take a long time as long as the wood will be sealed . The substance you found could be a tartaric acid deposit. My experience on barrels derives from a small wine production but is worth the same for the distillates.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Toxxyc »

Thanks for the replies, Demy. The barrels have 4 rings each, and it seems like the rings on the one I would like to open (to get that hard stuff in there, out) is riveted into a ring, with only 2 small nails holding the outer ring in place. Unfortunately it seems like the barrels were cleaned often on the outside, with Brasso being used to clean the brass rings. So yes, both of them will be completely submerged in hot water - I can submerge and keep them submerged easily - so I can get it back to as good as possible.

I have some stuff at home that might work. I've got Sodium Percarbonate that I think will work well for the inside, and I also have some Potassium Hydroxide (a strong lyme-like chemical) that I can also use.

I looked at them again now, and while the small one is clean, the bigger one is the one with the hard stuff inside. I don't know what it is, I can't ID it through the tiny bunghole, and I have no idea how I'm going to get it out. I thought about dissolving it in water and then rinsing it out (if it will dissolve), but I'm also worried that whatever it is will penetrate the wood then. So I'm a bit lost with what to do here.

Regarding rinsing - I have been considering buying some cheap fortified wine and using it to rinse out the barrels, and also to store inside the barrels when not in use. Should keep them wet, and also impart some flavour and colour to the barrels insides, ready for the next distillate. I don't think they'll ever stand empty, but you never know.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Good info here for reconditioning a cask! For longer term storage maybe a winelike solution of 12-15%ABV and pH of 3.2-3.6 would work well... Watering down a neutral and bumping the pH with citric or acid blend will help keep the nasties at bay! Throw some cheap wine kit wine in there for flavor and maybe fortify with neutral - options. You can always distill and reuse the contents when you're ready to empty and fill it with keeper spirits.

I've got a five gallon and a 10 liter barrel to recondition/clean so following for further advise. I don't really want to take them apart and the barrels are certainly neutral by now. I'll add oak sticks as needed instead of attempting to disassemble and scrape/re-char.

Cheers,
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Demy »

Toxxyc wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:52 am
You are on the right track.Don't take your barrels apart for now, I think you can use your sodium hydroxide to clean and dissolve the internal dregs left by wine. Sodium hydroxide and caustic soda (powerful stuff) will do a great job but be careful with your hands and eyes. I advise you to prepare a solution of a few liters, leave the barrel in different positions in order to have a good contact in all parts (for a few hours) then empty, rinse and repeat for a couple of times. You will notice that the barrel is ok by the color of the water. There would be some other tricks of mine but first try this
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Toxxyc wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:08 am OK I got the barrels just now. They're smaller than I expected (one looks to be a 1.8l and the other perhaps a 3l, I'll measure at home), and they are BONE dry. The bigger one looks to be in nicer nick with no visible gaps in the oak, while the smaller one has visible gaps in the oak that I am sure is going to leak like a sieve.
Just something to keep in mind. Small barrels have a much larger surface area to volume meaning that they will oak your spirits very fast. Think a few weeks at most, not months. Meaning you won't have any of the other benefits which comes from a long barrel rest.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Toxxyc »

Thanks guys, yes I'm aware of the shorter time for smaller barrels, and that's fine.

Regarding them, I took the time over the weekend and heated up some water and dumped them into the water. The smaller one first, and it seems the small one is larger than I expected. I thought it would be around 1.5l or so, but I ended up emptying a full 1.8l kettle plus a lot more into the barrel, so I'm estimating around 2.5l instead. The bigger one would probably be closer to 5l, so that's great.

Onto the sealing. Once I poured in hot water, I found a lot of wax coming out. It seems like they were sealed on the INSIDE using beeswax, which I would assume was a "cheat" method to save time, indicating that they were never intended to be used as aging casks, but literally just for serving wine at functions or parties. Doesn't matter though, I got a lot of it out and they're looking good now. The small one is already standing on a towel on it's own, with very little leaking left. There's a just a tiny leak still at the bottom of the rear lid, which drips a few drops per day. I'm just waiting for that to clear up.

The bigger one is also in hot water now, and also swelling well. Most of it's leaks is also gone. I can't seem to find oak bungs for the tap holes so I'm just going to leave them in place for now.

Then, I have left around 25l of water I used to swell the barrels with. This water is very rich in colour and aroma. It smells like oak and wine, which I love. I'm not going to toss this water - instead I'm going to use it to mash a whisky with. Anyone done this or thought about it before?
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Toxxyc wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:32 am Then, I have left around 25l of water I used to swell the barrels with. This water is very rich in colour and aroma. It smells like oak and wine, which I love. I'm not going to toss this water - instead I'm going to use it to mash a whisky with. Anyone done this or thought about it before?
I usually save that water for proofing down the spirits when they come back out of the barrel. Extra flavor that way. I doubt you'd be able to detect much coming through another mash.
Last edited by Expat on Mon May 17, 2021 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Yeah I'm not going to proof down with that, it's slightly tannic actually, so I think using it in a mash is a nicer idea. I've picked up flavours from an oaked low wines before, so this should have the same result? Considering my whisky I don't do a strip and then spirit run, I collect straight off the first run?
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

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Here where I live (at least in this area of Italy) often chestnut wood barrels (I really like this wood) are often covered with wax inside, at least the common ones that you find easily. According to me this is also done to limit the extraction of too many aromas in the wine, in fact this wood is quite porous and despite the wax however it releases interesting aromas. I believe it is not properly wax of bees (I mean that 100% natural) but think a solid type of paraffin for foods because it has a rather clear color.
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Re: Preparing ex-casks?

Post by Toxxyc »

Might be that as well, yes. I took most of the wax out (some remains, can't get it all, apparently) and it doesn't have a smell or taste. I'm just going to leave the rest of it in there.

The small barrel I emptied and filled with hot oak soup for the last time, and it finally seems to be sealing up completely. There's barely a drip on the last place it leaked, so I'm guessing at the end of this week I'll see if I can fill it up with some white rum. I'm doing a run sometime this week anyway.

I'll be checking if the larger one sealed tomorrow. I'll take it out, fill it up and leave it on it's stand to see if and where it leaks. There are a few large-ish cracks in some of the staves, like they tightened the rings too much, but it doesn't leak from the cracks, strangely. Mostly the leaks are isolated to the ends of the barrels. Seems to be the weak point.
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