Heating Element Control

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Tummydoc
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Tummydoc » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:24 am

Slow : "Odd it wouldn't work in distilling as that also just controls temperature." In distilling we are controlling power input to affect vapor speed. The temp in the boiler will constantly rise as the alcohol is depleted and you approach 100% water. You cant control the boiler temp, its boiling point is a matter of physics. I believe Cayars uses a PID in the vapor path, but then you are choosing a temp to shut down rather than really controlling the temp.
Posted concurrently with still stirrin, whose explanation is more elegant.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Slow42 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:06 pm

Thanks for the responses makes more sense to me now.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by The Booze Pipe » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:16 pm

The Baker wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:38 pm
The Booze Pipe wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:40 am
Otis,
I did buy and try a DIY kit, but I failed, twice to make it operational. Its a strong indication that my electrician skills are non existent at this point in life. I have all the 10/3 wire, so preferably if I could just connect that to a controller that is otherwise wired and ready for power.

Pope,
What do you think of the more simple digital SSR (DSPR2)? Is this a PID?? And would this benefit from a second pot? I'm not overly interested in an automated system I prefer more hands on.
I bought a DIY kit; and I am getting my local technician person to put it together!

Geoff
Coincidentally, I befriended an electrician! He's been helping me quite a bit.
13.5g/50L keg boiler
copper pot still
modular 3" CCVM copper&stainless w/offset gin head

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by cayars » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:37 am

Tummydoc wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:24 am
Slow : "Odd it wouldn't work in distilling as that also just controls temperature." In distilling we are controlling power input to affect vapor speed. The temp in the boiler will constantly rise as the alcohol is depleted and you approach 100% water. You cant control the boiler temp, its boiling point is a matter of physics. I believe Cayars uses a PID in the vapor path, but then you are choosing a temp to shut down rather than really controlling the temp.
Posted concurrently with still stirrin, whose explanation is more elegant.
And that's exactly why they can work well. When set at a specific temp and the flow rate drops to nothing I can change out jars and KNOW I've pulled heads and now ready for hearts where the program gets changed. The "P" functionality is used to set the target temp while the "ID" functions are used to control the vapor rate. Once I hit my next temp I'm done with hearts and ready for tails collection.

The problem is people don't use them correctly, not that they can't work. Once you figure out how to set the power ramp up (your flow adjustment) properly for your particular still it "clicks and makes sense" and gives you more control to really fine tune things.

They are more work, not good for a novices and probably only really useful for people that want to put the time in to learn ID functionality and how to fine tune it (no auto tune crap). It's work, but can be worthwhile. You also need to log information and take good notes on runs so you know how to adjust things properly and fine tune it. That may be more work that some people don't like and could take the fun out of the "hobby". I'm the analyst type so for me it adds to the hobby, but likely not for most people.

It's hard to go wrong with a RHEOSTAT type controller (at least to start with, or fall back on) as you have a simple dial to turn. Don't get much easier than that! A PID would not be my first choice for anyone new or doesn't understand the work that will be required to properly set it up.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Saltbush Bill » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:43 pm

So in short for the average hobby distiller a complete and utter waste of time.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by cayars » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:09 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:43 pm
So in short for the average hobby distiller a complete and utter waste of time.
Maybe for someone who doesn't understand how to use them or a novice (that has more important things to learn first), but they are a terrific tool for those with PID experience or willing to learn.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Slow42 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:39 pm

Cayars +1. A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Saltbush Bill » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:23 pm

The proof will be in the pudding.
Ideas that work well in distilling circles become popular and take off fast....before you know it they spread across the net to all of the forums.
The shit ideas usually sink to the bottom of the pile pretty quick.......let's see how this one does in the next year or so. My guess is that it won't learn to swim.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by jonnys_spirit » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:48 pm

KISS
8964A724-D82B-4838-8ED6-C6AD0FB5B50A.jpeg
————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by NZChris » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:24 pm

I'd be surprised if any of the old hands couldn't manage to force a PID controlled element to finish a stripping run or a spirit run, but I doubt any of them would choose to go to that much trouble except for doing a demonstration. I could run with one tomorrow, but I've never seen any logical, or scientific, reason why would I want to.

If someone is confident that controlling a pot still element with a PID has advantages, they should man up and start a new thread intended for eventual inclusion into the T&T area to explain why it works and how it works and what the advantages are, instead of burying assertions in existing threads.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by RC Al » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:59 pm

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:48 pm
KISS
:lol: priceless
Formerly FredVsBooze

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Corsaire
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Corsaire » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:17 am

Yes, please start a thread on how a pid works and how you use it.
I don't know how they work yet, so can't comment on how useful they are but would love to learn.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by shadylane » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:54 am

"Heating Element Control"
Isn't the right term, it causes confusion.
It should be called an adjustable boiling control :lol

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by cayars » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:21 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:23 pm
The proof will be in the pudding.
Ideas that work well in distilling circles become popular and take off fast....before you know it they spread across the net to all of the forums.
The shit ideas usually sink to the bottom of the pile pretty quick.......let's see how this one does in the next year or so. My guess is that it won't learn to swim.
The dessert has already been enjoyed by many. People are already swimming in good spirits made with the use of PIDs. A lot of people use them, but are smart enough to not comment about it here on this forum so they don't get attacked or ridiculed or told what they do doesn't work. :(

There are a few people here that constantly bash nearly any mention of PID and use the excuse of "not good for novice distillers" or similar. Maybe if people backed off trying to impose their own personal bias ("utter waste of time", "shit ideas", "couldn't manage to force a PID") in this thread alone, there would be more open conversations about them on the forum and the way people use them (not how you think they are used) to run their stills DIFFERENTLY. The majority of people I know who use them aren't novices, don't recommend them to novices, have rheostat type controllers as well that they often use for strip runs. But as many already know a PID is just a tool that can be used like any other to help improve the spirit you make by having finer control over raising boiler and vapor temps.

If you want people to come out of the closet on their use of PIDs, try being more open to people doing things differently and try to understand their reasoning and choices.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by cayars » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:27 am

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:48 pm
KISS
Image
Dang, nuclear reactor powered steam boiler? LOL
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Corsaire » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:27 am

So, please start a thread on how you use it.
I'm willing to learn and then make up my mind if it's worth using it.
Mentioned it before, my brother wants to make a semi automated still for the fun of it. This might be useful for that.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Saltbush Bill » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:55 am

cayars wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:21 am
improve the spirit you make by having finer control over raising boiler and vapor temps.
And so after all of this you still believe that you can control Boiler Temp?
:roll:

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Slow42 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:18 am

Cayars you are a trooper when defending the use of PID’S in distilling. We both know PID’S work, how and why! You have done a good job trying to explain that. You have forgotten one thing though, prejudice, “The only thing that is more expensive than education is ignorance” BF.

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Corsaire
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Corsaire » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:21 am

Of course you can control boiler temp. I can control it up to the boiling point of whatever's in the boiler at that time ;-)
Seriously though, please do explain how and why you use a pid. I'm not an electronics guy but would like to know more.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Saltbush Bill » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:23 am

Corsaire wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:21 am
Of course you can control boiler temp. I can control it up to the boiling point of whatever's in the boiler at that time
Well there ya go ...someone got something right.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Saltbush Bill » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 am

Slow42 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:18 am
Cayars you are a trooper when defending the use of PID’S in distilling. We both know PID’S work, how and why!
Slow42 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:18 am
Hello everyone! I am completely new to this hobby and have no experience except for a beer making kit I was given many moons ago.
On Jan the second of this year you wrote this and now you are 100% sure that Cayars is right ...wow I wish i could have learned as quickly as you have about all aspects of distilling. :thumbup:

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Slow42 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:41 am

Wow, you fit the quote to a tee! There is still hope for you though and other naysayers if you just open your minds and maybe learn to read between the lines. Enough from me on the subject sometimes progress is a rocky road! I have faith you will be enlightened someday!

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by thecroweater » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:59 am

Cut the crap right now end of story.
Those that would like to promote a system with obvious inherit problems and some sort of protocol for overcoming them I strongly suggest a stand alone thread for that and probably drop the condescending so much smarter than you approach.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Slow42 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:19 am

Well stated you should try taking your own advice. It’s quite obvious who’s side your on! Try being a true moderator!

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Tater » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:13 am

Enough of this childish bullshit .Start another thread on subject or drop it now!
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by StillerBoy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am

It's interesting how one can become very emotional about his method.. and that how people react every time they are required to acknowledge and make change in their life..

What is forgotten here, is this thread was started back in 2006, way before the majority of members posting of late, who thing they have learned it all the pas six years or so..

At the start of thread people built controllers using dimer switch, and it was the tool until about 6 or 7 years back, then came the SSR with pot as controller and that has been the tools until now, and it's now moving on to a new direction.. all good for the hobby..

With new tools and their understanding on how to use them, they make life in the hobby much more enjoyable..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas "

– Albert Einstein

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by cayars » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:10 am

Corsaire wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:27 am
So, please start a thread on how you use it.
I'm willing to learn and then make up my mind if it's worth using it.
Mentioned it before, my brother wants to make a semi automated still for the fun of it. This might be useful for that.
I spent a couple of minutes and put this together as a very brief overview. It was done quickly so I'm sure I messed something up. LOL
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=77252

The PID is a one trick pony and not really the best way to "automate" a still unless we're talking about a simple pot. Also check out https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=559 which may do everything you are looking for already. This would likely be a better option for many that are thinking or even using a PID. If you purchase one, check out the $12 upgrade for 2 additional relay controls.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.

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