Heating Element Control

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NineInchNails
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by NineInchNails » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:15 am

Expat wrote:No, with the Kyotto SSR kit which Budapest mentioned.

PIDs have no value in this process, I can't really understand why you'd want to add the extra cost and complexity.
Sorry I thought earlier when you said you bought a couple of those, I thought you were referring to the Auber unit for some reason.

I use PIDs for a lot of things related and unrelated and unrelated to distilling. I use PID to Sous Vide huge prime ribs for example. PID is ideal for casting lead. I have a 55 gal drum with an element in there for heating water for lots of uses. I just set the temp and it always works.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:39 pm

NineInchNails wrote:
Expat wrote:No, with the Kyotto SSR kit which Budapest mentioned.

PIDs have no value in this process, I can't really understand why you'd want to add the extra cost and complexity.
Sorry I thought earlier when you said you bought a couple of those, I thought you were referring to the Auber unit for some reason.

I use PIDs for a lot of things related and unrelated and unrelated to distilling. I use PID to Sous Vide huge prime ribs for example. PID is ideal for casting lead. I have a 55 gal drum with an element in there for heating water for lots of uses. I just set the temp and it always works.
Sous vide with a PID and a heating element? That's interesting, having the ability to scale up to a huge water bath and do that. I assume you drop some sort of a heat resistant pump into the water bath to circulate? Lots of lost energy unless you have an insulated vessel. I use a cooler to run my small home kitchen sous vide.
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by NineInchNails » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:57 am

Budapest8485 wrote:
NineInchNails wrote:
Expat wrote:No, with the Kyotto SSR kit which Budapest mentioned.

PIDs have no value in this process, I can't really understand why you'd want to add the extra cost and complexity.
Sorry I thought earlier when you said you bought a couple of those, I thought you were referring to the Auber unit for some reason.

I use PIDs for a lot of things related and unrelated and unrelated to distilling. I use PID to Sous Vide huge prime ribs for example. PID is ideal for casting lead. I have a 55 gal drum with an element in there for heating water for lots of uses. I just set the temp and it always works.
Sous vide with a PID and a heating element? That's interesting, having the ability to scale up to a huge water bath and do that. I assume you drop some sort of a heat resistant pump into the water bath to circulate? Lots of lost energy unless you have an insulated vessel. I use a cooler to run my small home kitchen sous vide.
Yes, I use a magnetic drive pump to recirculate water. Most Sous Vide machines, while small & convenient, are usually no more than 800W-900W and 5 gal recommended water volume. An insulated container helps for sure. Good for for controlling a double boiler for processes, bulk pasteurization and water bath canning too.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Expat » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:34 pm

Budapest, as promised here is the pics of my controller.
rps20181008_162718.jpg
rps20181008_162227.jpg
rps20181008_162319.jpg
rps20181008_162349.jpg
rps20181008_162253.jpg
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:23 am

Expat wrote:Budapest, as promised here is the pics of my controller.
rps20181008_162718.jpg
rps20181008_162227.jpg
rps20181008_162319.jpg
rps20181008_162349.jpg
rps20181008_162253.jpg
Nice build! My heat sink and fans are here. I bought some 10/4 wire and the plug. I thought the wire was $45 for 50 feet, but it was $83 when I got to the register I'm returning it and going to the homeless depot for a custom cut 30 foot section. That'll be $43 dollars...I only need 30 feet, not 50.

Waiting on Taiwan to get my SSR here...New York is taking it's time with getting the box to me. China says anytime between now and next month to get my heating element to me. So now I wait.

I'm going to cut the copper slant slots soon...I have a portable bandsaw or a hacksaw. I'm leaning town the hack saw coz I think I can keep the lines straighter. But it'll be a PITA and I'll probably decide to go bandsaw after I get tired.
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by sambedded » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:46 pm

NineInchNails wrote:
You can use an ammeter with that Auber unit? I is my understanding that the Auber controller turns the SSR on and off rapidly. Wouldn't that cause the ammeter to flicker on and off with the current?

I'm curious how you got your ammeter to run steady if the Auber cycles on and off. I'm very curious.
Yes, regular ammeter or voltmeter will not work correctly with that Auber controller. But you can use digital TrueRMS ammeter or voltmeter if it has long enough integration time.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:16 am

My SSR finally arrived. I'm going to wire it up tonight. My intention is to take one leg of the 220 direct to the heating element, then run the other through the SSR to the heating element. I'm wondering if I should have ordered a second SSR for the other leg. Do you think I'll lose any control or face other issues with just one leg being on the SSR?
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Expat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:41 am

Budapest8485 wrote:My SSR finally arrived. I'm going to wire it up tonight. My intention is to take one leg of the 220 direct to the heating element, then run the other through the SSR to the heating element. I'm wondering if I should have ordered a second SSR for the other leg. Do you think I'll lose any control or face other issues with just one leg being on the SSR?
Definitely NO to a second controller, one will provide all control.

Re wiring, yes, one leg direct from source to element, other leg through the AC terminals of the SSR and then to the element.
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Current boiler and pot head viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
Cross flow condenser viewtopic.php?f=87&t=47632
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:05 am

Expat wrote:
Budapest8485 wrote:My SSR finally arrived. I'm going to wire it up tonight. My intention is to take one leg of the 220 direct to the heating element, then run the other through the SSR to the heating element. I'm wondering if I should have ordered a second SSR for the other leg. Do you think I'll lose any control or face other issues with just one leg being on the SSR?
Definitely NO to a second controller, one will provide all control.

Re wiring, yes, one leg direct from source to element, other leg through the AC terminals of the SSR and then to the element.
Perfect! I'm all set. I have everything ready and I should be able to do my cleaning run and sacrificial run in the next few days. Time to read up on cleaning to make sure I do it effectively and efficiently!
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by sambedded » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:05 pm

Budapest8485 wrote: Perfect! I'm all set. I have everything ready and I should be able to do my cleaning run and sacrificial run in the next few days. Time to read up on cleaning to make sure I do it effectively and efficiently!
How big is your heatsink for SSR?

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:35 am

sambedded wrote:
Budapest8485 wrote: Perfect! I'm all set. I have everything ready and I should be able to do my cleaning run and sacrificial run in the next few days. Time to read up on cleaning to make sure I do it effectively and efficiently!
How big is your heatsink for SSR?
It's big. I have two small fans blowing on it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MT ... UTF8&psc=1

I can't find the thermal grease I bought... I've looked everywhere. Maybe I don't need it... I'll look around tonight and order more so I have it Saturday to start my sacrificial run.
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:32 am

I skipped my lunch and spent the time trying to get the POT soldered up. The two wires on top, fast, easy, simple. The post ground wire...it ain't happening. I sanded, I tinned the wire, I tried tinning the post, I did everything and the solder isn't sticking. Yes, plenty of flux. 8-9 tries, nothing!

Do I really need a ground wire. I'm skipping it unless someone tells me I'm taking a big risk without it.
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Expat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:55 pm

Only two wires required, center post and left post. This is when looking at the back of the pot with the terminals orientated down. You can see it in my pic above.

Gently sand/clean the terminal post if you can get the flux to etch it.
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Current boiler and pot head viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
Cross flow condenser viewtopic.php?f=87&t=47632
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Yummyrum » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:50 am

If you have a metal case then it will normally be grounded and effectively also ground the Pot when you mount it via the star washer and nut .

For the controller to work it only needs the two connections .... but the ground connection is there for safety . Inside that pot is a millimeter or two separating several hundred volts and the metal shaft of the pot . All going well , it should work fine .

However shit does happen ... and things that shouldn’t touch often do and electricity has a habit of tracking across dust and moisture over time so the metal case and shaft can become live . This is why a ground connection is made to the pot .... for your safety .

Fnd a way to ground the pot . :thumbup:

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:08 am

Yummyrum wrote:If you have a metal case then it will normally be grounded and effectively also ground the Pot when you mount it via the star washer and nut .

For the controller to work it only needs the two connections .... but the ground connection is there for safety . Inside that pot is a millimeter or two separating several hundred volts and the metal shaft of the pot . All going well , it should work fine .

However shit does happen ... and things that shouldn’t touch often do and electricity has a habit of tracking across dust and moisture over time so the metal case and shaft can become live . This is why a ground connection is made to the pot .... for your safety .

Fnd a way to ground the pot . :thumbup:
I'll bring a wire over from the underside of the pot over to the green wire inside. It won't be soldered, but It'll be easy enough to do pinning it against the metal of the POT. Thanks for the advice.

I used my multi-meter to measure volts while adjusting the POT:
Direct in the receptical I'm at 215 volts
100% with the POT I'm at 190 volts
0% I'm at 171 volts

These are not the results I was expecting. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm wondering just how much I'll be able to reduce the power to the heating element with this SSR...
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Big Stogie » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:33 am

What potentiometer are you using ?
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:57 am

Big Stogie wrote:What potentiometer are you using ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-AC- ... 2749.l2649
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Big Stogie » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:05 am

Take an ohm meter and verify the start and finish resistance of the pot.
When the student is ready the teacher will emerge.

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:39 am

Big Stogie wrote:Take an ohm meter and verify the start and finish resistance of the pot.
I'm not the best with my multi-meter, but I will give it a try and post the results. Thanks
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:37 pm

Big Stogie wrote:Take an ohm meter and verify the start and finish resistance of the pot.
On zero, the reading is 1 which I think means 0
On 100%, the reading is 0.045

I don't know what this means...
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Yummyrum » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:06 pm

Depends what range your multimeter was on . There are two types . Auto anging and manual range adjustable .
If this was the readng on an Auto ranging meter it should have a K ( Kilo ohms ) or an M ( Mega ohms ) after the number.
If it was 0.045M , then this saying your pot is 45K ohms ..... not 450K ohms like it should be . This could explain your lack of range .

Also curious if you had a load connected to your controller when you measured the voltage range as with no load connected you will get erronious readings

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Expat » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:41 pm

I fooled myself similarly the first time building with my controller. As Yummyrum said, it needs to be tested under load.

So long as you have everything grounded properly, close it up, put some water in your boiler and give it a go. You should be able to to hear the change in power output by the noise the boiler makes.

If I get a chance later I'll measure my spare pot which is known functional. As it's the same kit perhaps I can recreate the resistance reading.
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Current boiler and pot head viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
Cross flow condenser viewtopic.php?f=87&t=47632
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by sambedded » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:42 pm

Budapest8485 wrote:
I used my multi-meter to measure volts while adjusting the POT:
Direct in the receptical I'm at 215 volts
100% with the POT I'm at 190 volts
0% I'm at 171 volts

These are not the results I was expecting. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm wondering just how much I'll be able to reduce the power to the heating element with this SSR...
It's completely OK. Triac inside an SSR works like a switch but it's not a switch. When it's "open" (no current) it still has some very minor leakage. So if you don't connect a load voltmeter will show voltage close to receptacle voltage. Most convenient way to test your controller - take 2 incandescent lamp bulbs, connect them inline and use them as a load (instead of heater).

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:44 am

Expat wrote:I fooled myself similarly the first time building with my controller. As Yummyrum said, it needs to be tested under load.

So long as you have everything grounded properly, close it up, put some water in your boiler and give it a go. You should be able to to hear the change in power output by the noise the boiler makes.

If I get a chance later I'll measure my spare pot which is known functional. As it's the same kit perhaps I can recreate the resistance reading.
Soaked it all in vinegar and water overnight. Plugged in with the solution to do a cleaning run. The sound is no different during heat up at 0-100. While it's close to start distilling, it's gone quiet...
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Expat » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:59 am

Quiet approaching the boil is normal. Most of the responsiveness in the control is in the 2nd half of the dial, so turn slowly. At zero you shouldn't have any power input (dead quiet), but you should be able to hear the difference as you move towards 100%.

More fun if you wired the pot backwards because everything is reversed.
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Current boiler and pot head viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
Cross flow condenser viewtopic.php?f=87&t=47632
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:24 am

Expat wrote:Quiet approaching the boil is normal. Most of the responsiveness in the control is in the 2nd half of the dial, so turn slowly. At zero you shouldn't have any power input (dead quiet), but you should be able to hear the difference as you move towards 100%.

More fun if you wired the pot backwards because everything is reversed.

I just turned it all off and the SSR is completely cool to the touch after running vinegar water through it for 30 minutes.

I think I wired it correctly. I ran it at 100 to warm up, then took it down to zero and there was no noticeable difference in performance.

I'll upload some pics of my box wiring for discussion purposes.
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:45 am

I realize I can do a cleaner job attaching the wires in some of the connections. I'll work on that, but I wanted to test it all out to confirm it's working.

Let me know if you see anything that might be causing my SSR to not operate correctly.

Thanks
Attachments
box5.jpg
box4.jpg
box3.jpg
box2.jpg
box1.jpg
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Expat » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:29 am

I don't know if it makes a difference, but from what I can see your pot wires are reversed at the SSR compared to mine. Perhaps try switching them?
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Current boiler and pot head viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
Cross flow condenser viewtopic.php?f=87&t=47632
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by sambedded » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:49 am

Wiring looks OK (including pot). Are your fans blowing at the same direction? If so you need to make some vents on opposite side of your box.
Budapest8485 wrote: I ran it at 100 to warm up, then took it down to zero and there was no noticeable difference in performance.
Could you measure voltage on heating element when pot in 0-50-100% positions?

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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Budapest8485 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:07 am

sambedded wrote:Wiring looks OK (including pot). Are your fans blowing at the same direction? If so you need to make some vents on opposite side of your box.
Budapest8485 wrote: I ran it at 100 to warm up, then took it down to zero and there was no noticeable difference in performance.
Could you measure voltage on heating element when pot in 0-50-100% positions?

I haven't drilled the holes in the box yet...I've left the box open a crack while doing this testing.

Voltage was 212 at the heating element while under load of a full boiler. No change regardless of what adjustment I make with the POT. Nothing is happening when I adjust it. Do I have a bad SSR or POT?
3 x 60 inch Bokabob, 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

3 inch pot still head, reduce 2, then to 48 inch 1/2 condenser. 8 gallon boiler, 4500w

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