10,000w SCR vs SSR

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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby GrassHopper » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:03 pm

masonsjax wrote:I don't think anyone is impatient with you. I think this is dangerous stuff that can seriously hurt or kill someone. You're giving indication that you don't completely understand the details that make this dangerous, so yeah, you should be nervous. For example, neutral was not added for safety reasons, that's what ground is for. Neutral allows for using multiple circuits of differing voltage in a single device. Please understand that your (and your family's) safety is our only reason for responding here.

Grammatically and technically you are correct. My point is this.....I know of quite a number of gents who have stole 110 volts off a 220 line for various purposes off a three wire system. I am not contesting your point at all about why a neutral was added. What I am saying is, that you are correct, using a ground for current is not safe and the 4 wire system with neutral eliminates that temptation by providing the supply route for 110. So, in reality it adds safety by eliminating the temptation to use a ground on a three wire for 110 use. That was my point. Oh, sure those electricians would say, that was a stupid thing to do, and they are right, but hey, people do and did things to accomplish what they needed when in a dire situation. If the chickens are freezing you figure something out fast. Not only that, most people back then didn't understand the danger and did it anyway. There were minimal or no codes or rules in many places back then.
We are here to learn and be safe. And yes, I do understand that the number of amps delivered by 110 volt potential leg of a 220 volt circuit to ground is vastly different than the 30,000 volts of shock I have received on multiple occasions from working on TVs at much lower amps. Especially when circuit is completed to ground via standing in water or touching a grounded water pipe.
Anyway, I do appreciate positive input and hope I can get some input to the objective. I just wanted some input on my schematic. I don't see anything wrong with asking about it and if anyone does I would appreciate your positive comments. And hopefully, this will be a contribution to those who follow this topic. So, if I am misunderstanding the danger and the concept please advise.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby skow69 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:04 pm

I like your diagram much better with the ground labeled ground. You should also connect ground to the green screw on the switch and the metal case of the SCR. The idea is to ground everything that can conduct electricity so that if it ever comes in contact with live current, it will go to ground/earth through the green wire instead of going through you. That distinction between ground and neutral makes me nervous because it is so often misunderstood. Just to be clear, the box should always be connected to ground, and never connected to neutral. And always follow the color code on the source receptacle and plug.

As for the ammeter, I would be surprised if it was intended for inline connection. That requires large components in the meter to carry 30 amps so it is generally cheaper to use an external shunt or current transformer. It won't hurt anything to try it. It will just peg the meter. There should have been a sticker on it that gives range and scale, or maybe a ratio printed on it, like 30:3, or something similar.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby GrassHopper » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:54 pm

Skow, thanks for the input. I have completed my controller. I did connect the switch to ground as you suggested (green screw, green wire). I forgot to show it on the schematic. I have grounded the SCR as well.
The ammeter is this:
Shurite - 8505Z - AC Ammeter; 0 to 30A; 5 %; 2.5 in.; 0.182 in.; 850 Series analog
AC models, double-vane repulsion, jewel bearing $23.00 from Allied Electronics
I could not find any markings on the meter, but I did find a blog on the suppliers site where a representative answered a guys question as to whether it needed an external shunt/CT. He said not as long as
the current is within the meters range. So, I guess it must have an internal shunt even though I could not find any indication on the specs?
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby skow69 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:01 pm

Cool. Sounds like you're all set up.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Bama boy » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:58 pm

This has been good reading from a newbie ! Thank y'all for the information! And yes mine will be 240v Chinese controler, Should be here this week ,will order next time from Amazon ,not Ebay . Again thanks for this post
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Bama boy » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:04 pm

[attachment=0]766B6A2A-B932-461C-A67F-177E8DCD3315.jpeg[/attachment. SCR eBay posting picture
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Dima » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:52 pm

Just placed order for:
10000W SCR Digital Voltage Regulator Module Board Speed Control Dimmer Thermostat AC 220V 80A
Dernord 2 Inch (OD64) Tri-clamp Ripple Heating Element Electric Water Heater 5500W 240V
On ama zon .ca prime, at least if it is wrong stuff return is free :) :wink:
I have nice box and access to 10/3 wire and plugs.
Getting to cold in garage :thumbdown:
Bought some flux core stainless steel wire for my mig welder, hope it works well to put ferrule for heater and valve
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Bama boy » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:31 pm

Dima wrote:Just placed order for:
10000W SCR Digital Voltage Regulator Module Board Speed Control Dimmer Thermostat AC 220V 80A
Dernord 2 Inch (OD64) Tri-clamp Ripple Heating Element Electric Water Heater 5500W 240V
On ama zon .ca prime, at least if it is wrong stuff return is free :) :wink:
I have nice box and access to 10/3 wire and plugs.
Getting to cold in garage :thumbdown:
Bought some flux core stainless steel wire for my mig welder, hope it works well to put ferrule for heater and valve

I wouldn’t recommend using flux core mig on SS, TIG weld it, even if you have to pay someone, this is just my 2 cents worth , if I was gonna MiG it,use solid and gas,
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Pikey » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:27 am

Bama boy wrote:
Dima wrote:Just placed order for:
10000W SCR Digital Voltage Regulator Module Board Speed Control Dimmer Thermostat AC 220V 80A
Dernord 2 Inch (OD64) Tri-clamp Ripple Heating Element Electric Water Heater 5500W 240V
On ama zon .ca prime, at least if it is wrong stuff return is free :) :wink:
I have nice box and access to 10/3 wire and plugs.
Getting to cold in garage :thumbdown:
Bought some flux core stainless steel wire for my mig welder, hope it works well to put ferrule for heater and valve

I wouldn’t recommend using flux core mig on SS, TIG weld it, even if you have to pay someone, this is just my 2 cents worth , if I was gonna MiG it,use solid and gas,


Nice one Dima 8)

Give the flux -core a go mate :) - Try it on some scrap first, then when you feel ok move on to the good stuff ! 8)

8) If you make it work, you have a new skill - If you have to go cap in hand to a weld shop - nothing lost above going there now.

(I've got some flux-core stainless wire too - for when I need it and I shall certainly have a go with an expectation that I'll be able to make it work :thumbup: Some of the youtube videos are pretty good on welding )

[Edit - but I've also got stainless in stick form for the big welder. ]
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Nunyo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:42 am

rgreen2002 wrote:
The attachment s-l1600.jpg is no longer available


I've been using this for a few years without a hitch. You can find them on ebay. Here is one from amazon too: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018XXB7H0/re ... D96YHVKPRO

Truth is they ARE both great options... I think what you will get here is peoples opinions of each.

I used the same setup for my new still. While I have only tested it with some water in my still as I am still completing my flute, it seemed to work fine.

Here is my build. The SCR came from eBay and the volt meter and other parts came from Amazon. The 10 gauge wire came from Lowes.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby OtisT » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:49 am

Hi folks. I am using the same digital V/A/W/P meter shown on many of these controller boxes. Does anyone else have issues with their LED screen getting hot and going black where the heat is? It is likely the placement of my meter, with the 220 line in crossing just under the meter at that location, but before I move it I wanted to see if others have this issue with theirs.

You can see a slight darkening of the label on the back of the meter where it touches or is near the 220v line in.
IMG_0865.JPG
Outside looking in

IMG_0867.JPG
The guts


Symptoms: When I first power on it all starts off well. After running for 10-20 minutes the screen starts going black from the lower left corner and that blackness grows until all I can read is my Amps in the opposite corner of the screen. I had to make a hand written chart so I can know my wattage based on my Amps. :evil: I noticed that the surface of my screen is quite warm/hot to the touch and think this is the issue, but not sure if these inexpensive meters just get hot or if it's placement.

Thanks,
Otis
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Nunyo » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:48 am

OtisT wrote:Hi folks. I am using the same digital V/A/W/P meter shown on many of these controller boxes. Does anyone else have issues with their LED screen getting hot and going black where the heat is? It is likely the placement of my meter, with the 220 line in crossing just under the meter at that location, but before I move it I wanted to see if others have this issue with theirs.

You can see a slight darkening of the label on the back of the meter where it touches or is near the 220v line in.
IMG_0865.JPG

IMG_0867.JPG


Symptoms: When I first power on it all starts off well. After running for 10-20 minutes the screen starts going black from the lower left corner and that blackness grows until all I can read is my Amps in the opposite corner of the screen. I had to make a hand written chart so I can know my wattage based on my Amps. :evil: I noticed that the surface of my screen is quite warm/hot to the touch and think this is the issue, but not sure if these inexpensive meters just get hot or if it's placement.

Thanks,
Otis


Heat will do that to LCD displays. In looking at your build, your meter is right above the SCR or SSR which is obviously the single biggest source of heat in these controllers. If it were me, I’d move the SCR up closer to the fan which is how I built mine. Between the SCR, the outlet and the wires, you have a lot of heat being consolidated in one area. Also, it looks as though you drilled some holes for ventilation at the base of the box next to the SCR. You might consider enlarging those holes.

That said, it looks as though your fan is blowing out? While I did my fan the same way, I laid my components out differently as you can see from the pictures I posted above. When I laid mine out, my goal was to minimize heat in the box and I placed my components accordingly. In your case, because the fan is so far from the SCR/Heat Source, before I’d do anything else, I would try flipping the fan so you are pressurizing the box and see if that helps with the cooling. That would fill the box with cooler air and force the heat out of the box at the lower vents instead of filling the box up with heat before it’s exhausted out. It might also help to open a couple of the vent holes closest to the controller so the air flow velocity is increased in that area. Then see what happens. If that doesn’t solve it, then try blocking a hole off that is furthest from the SCR/SSR. Then if that doesn’t solve the issue, my next step would be to move the SCR up alongside the fan. I have a gut feeling that flipping the fans flow might just solve your issue.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby OtisT » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:51 am

Thanks slief. I was boiling water yesterday for a batch of rum and was able to do a few tests.

I do have more holes on the each side on the box in addition to a bunch on the bottom and top. Yes, my fan is blowing out and it is powered from my power output, so the more power I apply the more airflow I get. I actually don’t think it is getting too hot in the box after all. I pulled that meter out through the front hole and I positioned the meter a few inches away from the box all together. I found that the meter itself was getting super hot where the inputs are and causing its own problem with the display. The internals of the box were warm, at best. Considering no one else has reported similar issues with this specific meter, I must have a bad one. I’m an analog fan anyway and think I may replace it with a simple amp meter when this one finally goes tits up.

Otis
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby Johnnywhiskey » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:20 pm

Where are you reading your voltage and current for the meter? The meter expects a perfect sign wave, so the signal after the SCR will not be accurate. I have the same meter (I think) and it works fine to read the watts on the input power--the voltage of course always reads 240v or there about. That might not be your problem with the screen--if not probably a heat issue from the SCR, or just defective.

Stay Thirsty, JW


OtisT wrote:Hi folks. I am using the same digital V/A/W/P meter shown on many of these controller boxes. Does anyone else have issues with their LED screen getting hot and going black where the heat is? It is likely the placement of my meter, with the 220 line in crossing just under the meter at that location, but before I move it I wanted to see if others have this issue with theirs.

You can see a slight darkening of the label on the back of the meter where it touches or is near the 220v line in.
IMG_0865.JPG

IMG_0867.JPG


Symptoms: When I first power on it all starts off well. After running for 10-20 minutes the screen starts going black from the lower left corner and that blackness grows until all I can read is my Amps in the opposite corner of the screen. I had to make a hand written chart so I can know my wattage based on my Amps. :evil: I noticed that the surface of my screen is quite warm/hot to the touch and think this is the issue, but not sure if these inexpensive meters just get hot or if it's placement.

Thanks,
Otis
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby cede » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:31 pm

If your led display goes out just on a side and viewing the sticker, it's inside the meter.
The SSR would diffuse the heat and if it could heat that much, you would have more troubles inside the box.
Your meter might me dying, or as suggested by Johnnywhiskey , you're not powering it the good way.
If after the SSR, chances are that the waveform is not that clean and the power supply of your meter does not like it so it heats.

Try to plug the meter directly in the main to see if it heats the same.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Postby OtisT » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:01 pm

Thanks for the replies. I am taking the current reading before the SRC. My line first comes into a 30-A Switch, then I have the induction coil around one line between that Switch and the SRC Input. You can see the black disk just above the back of my resistors in the pic above.

At this time I am thinking it is a faulty/failing unit and not the build. I pulled the meter out of the box socket for a boil. I kept the meter much further away from the SRC and any 240V wires. The meter got hot all on it's own in the same spot where the display was going black, just above where the wires come into the unit. :cry:
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