pid controller

If it plugs in, post it here.

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mulligan
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

I'll answer it for you....EXPERIENCE. After producing the same recipe in very controlled processes time after time, the cut points will be very predictable. They do the same recipe over and over...Repeatability.
Is exactly what I want to do, except I'll watch the cuts between heads and hearts and then hearts to tails.
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still_stirrin
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Re: pid controller

Post by still_stirrin »

mulligan wrote:...you didn't mention a single control that wasn't temperature based
I said, "they monitor the process temperatures".

They "control" the processes by opening and closing valves. They turn pumps on and off. They measure flow rates (gpm) and even the proof of the distillate.

The temperatures DO NOT control the processes.

I am NOT going to argue with you any more.

Do your due diligence.
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

s_s I do respect you, but what do you think they look at when deciding whether to increase, decrease flow rate etc?

I promise it isn't % proof of distillate

And Yes I do know exactly what I'm talking about. I gave you plenty of room to call me names and express your opinion, but that reflects on your credibility, not mine.
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NZChris
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Re: pid controller

Post by NZChris »

What you want to do requires a temperature switch, not a temperature controller.
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Prospekt
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Re: pid controller

Post by Prospekt »

Take a look at the features this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=559 PID has. (DSPR220)

Walking away from the still would terrify me, but this one might give you some of the features you're looking for in a tidy package. Auto shut-down after the still head temp rises to your setpoint, auto heat-up and dialing back the SSR pulse rate during distillation, etc. The example they give for a scenario of automation does not really consider that the mash ABV declines and requires more power, so I doubt that this will work the way they're presenting it. But maybe if you were just doing a strip and wanted to strip hard and fast it would work.
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Re: pid controller

Post by cob »

mulligan wrote: I gave you plenty of room to call me names and express your opinion, but that reflects on your credibility, not mine.
when this was posted I re read all of still_stirrin's posts in this thread 3 times. you should do the same. opinions I found, but no name calling.
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MichiganCornhusker
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Re: pid controller

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

mulligan wrote:...I want heads in a collecter with product stopping at some point if wife calls me etc and same for hearts without a huge puddle of flammable stuff on the floor
Easy, just get a bigger jar! :lol:

So, clue me in here, what's the point of this thread?

Are there any questions being asked that haven't been addressed?
Is there any proof of concept on display for us to share?

To say the goal here isn't automation, but then to say it is to manage your still while you are called away for a half hour is sorta talking out both sides of your mouth, if you get my meaning. A lot of bad things can happen in "x minutes".
The goal of creating any kind of system to allow you to wander off while still is running is unacceptable for any reason. Period. No need to discuss any further.

So to get past that, let's say the goal is to shut the system down safely if you have a stroke while sitting in your chair watching the rig with your full attention. And you want to sit there and watch things happen with switches and gizmos for just because.
Why not.

I run a pot still and I've never measured a temperature anywhere on it.
But I do know that I need to increase heat as run progresses to maintain output.

So if your plan is to run several batches through your still and make careful measurements of temps and perceived cut points and then use that info for running the exact same type of wash and allow some electrical switchery to control your heat source, while you watch, then I say go for it and report back with results.

The idea has been presented, lots of feedback has been given.
I'd say it's time to get to work.
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mulligan
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

All good Michigan.

The wiser than me have told me I need a raspberry pi or arduino (or a timer connected to pid, if I'm being agricultural). I will likely use a grainfather controller.

Limiting vapour temperature may have been a better description, compared to controlling.

I love how no-one berates Odin any more, though they did a few years ago.

Anyway, I have got as far as determining that the transition from heads to hearts on my still is at approximately 86 degrees centigrade, as measured by vapour temperature and I know fairly precisely how long temperature increase slows down and stabilises for at that phase. By limiting vapour temperature to that level I can separate the majority of heads and then shut down the still or move on to the next phase.

Transition from hearts to tails will likely be some 6-7 degrees above that and I could explain the predictable correlation between abv and vapour temperature, but would likely get ridiculed.

Anyone who has run a pot still a lot will know that the temperature increase naturally slows dramatically at certain phases (given unchanged power input). Giving alarms at these points and allowing the option to move to next phase or shut down makes sense to me. Apparently the rest of you never answer your phone, watch tv, take a piss or do anything else except focus on your parrot.
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NZChris
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Re: pid controller

Post by NZChris »

There is no need to limit the vapor temperature. You need an alarm to get you off your arse to swap the jug. If you know what temperature works for you, use some type of thermostat to activate a ram to tip you out of your damn rockin chair.
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:
I run a pot still and I've never measured a temperature anywhere on it.
But I do know that I need to increase heat as run progresses to maintain output.
This doesn't help you make your point. You may need to maintain heat to ensure run progresses fast. Many people reduce heat for a slower run. I don't know anyone who increases heat (except to turn heat back up for tails if they have reduced it for hearts)
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

NZChris wrote:There is no need to limit the vapor temperature. You need an alarm to get you off your arse to swap the jug. If you know what temperature works for you, use some type of thermostat to activate a ram to tip you out of your damn rockin chair.
Fair point Sir. I would still want the power cut off if I am dead or too drunk to notice when tipped out of rocking chair.
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NZChris
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Re: pid controller

Post by NZChris »

mulligan wrote:
NZChris wrote:There is no need to limit the vapor temperature. You need an alarm to get you off your arse to swap the jug. If you know what temperature works for you, use some type of thermostat to activate a ram to tip you out of your damn rockin chair.
Fair point Sir. I would still want the power cut off if I am dead or too drunk to notice when tipped out of rocking chair.
I think there are threads here on that. A latching relay can have as many safeties, switches and timers you want daisy chained latching it on.
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shadylane
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Re: pid controller

Post by shadylane »

NZChris wrote:I think there are threads here on that. A latching relay can have as many safeties, switches and timers you want daisy chained latching it on.
And there's fixen to be another
Not automation, just designing the electrics to protect the still from operator error
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

shadylane wrote:
NZChris wrote:I think there are threads here on that. A latching relay can have as many safeties, switches and timers you want daisy chained latching it on.
And there's fixen to be another
Not automation, just designing the electrics to protect the still from operator error
That I will follow closely. Hopefully protecting the household and neighbors too.

I know I express myself badly, but most of this forum and it's members favor safety first, so I had hoped my thoughts no matter how flawed would have been better received
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Re: pid controller

Post by rad14701 »

mulligan wrote:Apparently the rest of you never answer your phone, watch tv, take a piss or do anything else except focus on your parrot.
BINGO...!!! :clap:

No distractions from distilling... Everything else can wait... I'm unavailable... I'll piss in the sink if I have to...
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

rad14701 wrote:
mulligan wrote:Apparently the rest of you never answer your phone, watch tv, take a piss or do anything else except focus on your parrot.
BINGO...!!! :clap:

No distractions from distilling... Everything else can wait... I'm unavailable... I'll piss in the sink if I have to...
Respect Rad, as I'm sure your runs take many hours and you are always sober during them :crazy:

In pic where Rad is on the toilet and the phone, is he still watching his still?
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Re: pid controller

Post by mulligan »

cob wrote:
mulligan wrote: I gave you plenty of room to call me names and express your opinion, but that reflects on your credibility, not mine.
when this was posted I re read all of still_stirrin's posts in this thread 3 times. you should do the same. opinions I found, but no name calling.
I exchanged igm's with ss and respect his contributions. I cannot recall if all messages in the thread are still here. In case of doubt, I apologize without reservation to him and to anyone else I may have disrespected.
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Re: pid controller

Post by NZChris »

mulligan wrote:Apparently the rest of you never answer your phone, watch tv, take a piss or do anything else except focus on your parrot.
My shed has TV, stereo, phone & computer and a tree outside to piss on. What it doesn't have is a parrot unless there are some sitting on the roof.
The still can be run into a graduated jar that can take a whole run.

It can be monitored from every connected device, computers, smartphones and Ipads, and can be shut down from the house, which is some distance away.
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still_stirrin
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Re: pid controller

Post by still_stirrin »

mulligan wrote:
cob wrote:
mulligan wrote: I gave you plenty of room to call me names and express your opinion, but that reflects on your credibility, not mine.
when this was posted I re read all of still_stirrin's posts in this thread 3 times. you should do the same. opinions I found, but no name calling.
I exchanged igm's with ss and respect his contributions. I cannot recall if all messages in the thread are still here. In case of doubt, I apologize without reservation to him and to anyone else I may have disrespected.
Sorry, I was offline yesterday gents.

Indeed, I did have several lengthy PMs with mulligan over the past week attempting to help him understand what a PiD can do...and what it can't.

I took the man-to-man discussions "offline" because when they remained "public", the reception of the conversation was jaded by offense and defensiveness. The conclusion of those discussions was an understanding that the PiD would be used to trigger an alarm when the boil was approaching the set temperature. The alarm is the notification that mulligan needs to service the boiler, check the parrot measurements, or at least adjust the heat input. It was never acknowledged that the boiler would be left running alone...as I stated previously, that is irresponsible and DANGEROUS. We, the HD forum do not condone that behavior.

So, to the past, present, and future participants in this thread, "attempting to automate a still using a PiD alone is not recommended". PiDs don't function in a manner to regulate the extraction of a particular constituent from the mixture by temperature control (Roult's law). A PiD can sound an alarm at a programmed set temperature of the wash or vapor (depending where the temperature sensor is installed), if you need an "attention getter" to listen for when running. And a PiD, if it has the proper functionality, can be operated in a % of power (manual) setting to control the power to the heating element.

But you don't need a PiD to monitor the boiler and/or vapor temperature....I have a 4-channel digital thermometer that monitors the vapor temperature at the VM takeoff Tee, the vapor temperature in the reflux condenser, and the product condenser's water temperature input and output at the same time. Those measurements give me a great indication on how the run is balanced and progressing. The temperatures are simply a "monitor" of the processes, as the heat input is controlled by me by adjusting the control panel settings.

Mulligan's desire is to use the PiD (temperature measurement) to annunciate to him when the vapor temperature reaches a key "milestone" in the process. From there (then?), he will service the still, collection jars, heat input, product condenser coolant flow, etc. It is (assured by mulligan) that it is not a "set and forget" function.
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Re: pid controller

Post by DAD300 »

Auber sells controllers with alarms and the alarms can actuate...other functions.

But, think of them as power controllers. Set power for 100% until reaching 160 deg F. Then it resets power to say 50% until reaching 200 deg F. Then it sounds an alarm and shuts power off!

It would be fun to sit and watch the technology work it's wonders. but sit there and watch.
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