Help on controler parts.

If it plugs in, post it here.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

Hey Guys!

In about to buy parts for a new Still.

Im going electrical on the heating, 2 x 6000W elements mounted in the pot.

i want to run i of a 400V outlet 3phases and a 0 + ground.

What do i need to make that run, i aint a guru on that part of the stuff.

The elements im planing tu use are
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-220V-6KW- ... SwxX1Z2fVg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Greets From
Denmark
Danish Destiller :D
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

That element is 220Volt so you will be running it in 3 phase star conguration not in 400V Delta config .....which I guess you know thats why you said you'll be using the Neutral as well as the three Phases . ....and earth .

As far as I know there isn't a 3 Phase pot controller like we commonly know such as the 40 SSR VR or 40 SSR VA series Phase controllers

There is however Three phase Zero crossing Switches . These are relays and need to be driven by a Burst or Time proportional controller . Fortunately these are available as Manual power control in Brew Controllers such as the Aurberins type .DSPR120. These can directly drive a 3 phase zero crossing relay such as 3 phase 40A SSR or alternatively you could use 3x separate SSR DA s , one for each phase , the advantage is that if one blows you can replace it instead of replacing the the whole thing , maybe cheaper ....but replacing a part is replacing a part .( the DSPR120 can drive up to 6x SSRDA's in parallel )

If I had 3 phase , this exactly what I would be doing :thumbup:
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

Wow ;)

Man i need to read some more up on that kinda stuff :), sounds wired in my ears :)

Welle ill return when i have fuigured it out :)
Danish Destiller :D
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

A PID controler ?

Like ITC-106RL with a PT100 temp sensor !

Do it need a external powersuply or can it run on 240V ?
Danish Destiller :D
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

Now i did use a few hours on fuiguring out how to build a system for it

anyone there agree on the design ? or are there things to change ?


Here's what i came up with !
controller 3 Phase.jpg
Danish Destiller :D
User avatar
Windy City
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Windy City »

I may be wrong but looking closely at the picture of that element you only connect two hot leads.
there are jumpers connecting two sets of three posts.
with this configuration it would not be three phase and you do not connect a neutral and you do not use the third hot leg.
With that being said you should be able to copy one of the many controller threads on this fourm.
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

"Windy City"

The elements are bridged 3 and 3,

then you saying that element1 = L1 + L2 and element2 = L2 + L3 ? or am i wrong ?

Need to make the load out on a 5 pin 400V outlet cooz only place i have enough power for the elements !

Like that ?
controller 3 Phase2.jpg
Danish Destiller :D
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

Bender
the element consists if 3 individual elements . You need to remove two straps to allow cconnection to the three .
Hope this crappy picture helps .
3 phase element.jpg
You do not need a temp sensor for a boiler . You will only be using the PID in Manual Mode
It is Important that any PID you choose has a Manual mode and can drive an SSR in either Burst control or Time proportional Control. If it doesn't mention those words in the specs then its not the PID for you .

Also if you use the one I linked to , it doesn't need a 12 volt supply and can connect directly to the 220 V . :thumbup:

Here is how to wire it . Sorry if the colour codes don't match your country . I used the old New Zealand colour system as its easy to draw .
Note I have not shown earth ( ground) wiring as you have that correct .
Not saying this is the only way to do it but its the simplest and easy .
3 phase diagram.jpg
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

Awsome :)

Thanks Yummyrum. That helped me out a lot :)

Now im gonna order the elements and rest of the stuff to make the setup :)

Ill return with pictures when im building :)
Danish Destiller :D
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

No worries BenderDK good luck and will love to see your pics

yeah I forgot to mention that PIDs like the DSPR120 are connected to the 220v AC so that they can synchronize the Burst firing to the Mains cycle . Simple Time proportional controllers don't need to worry about this .

But Burst fire mode is the best method as it evenly spreads the power between cycles whereas the time proportional control tends to have a cycle of around 1-2 seconds and Olddog had mentioned he could detect surge boiling happening .
User avatar
Windy City
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Windy City »

I may be missing something but...
Why not just lose the third phase and the neutral?
That element has three coils but they are linked so you can wire it as if it was a single coil like the standard elements most use.
Why can’t you feed one leg (that feeds one side of the three coils) with a hot lead and the other leg with a hot lead that feeds the other side of the three coils but that leg is controlled through a ssr, ssvr, scr etc. like any other element/controller set up
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

Windy
In the USA what you are saying is right because for you guys that have two live wires .Each live wire is 110v with respect to nuetral but because the two live wires are 180° out of phase , there is 220v across them .
2 phase supply.jpg
2 phase supply.jpg (13.88 KiB) Viewed 2430 times
In the rest of the world we generally only have a single live and a nuetral to every house but big sheds or factories have 3 phase . There are three live wires and a nuetral .(plus an earth )
With three phase system each live wire carries 220v with respect to the nuetral but the main difference is that each live wire is 120° out of phase to each other .
This makes running huge induction motors easy and their direction can be reversed by swapping two phases .
3_phase_AC_waveform.svg.png
Because the live wires are 120° out of phase , if you measure across any two live wires you will get 400v
This why the three phase sytem is often called 3 phase 400V.

So to address you suggestion , Just think what will happen when the three parallel connected 220v elements are connected across two live wires that can supply 400v :oops:
User avatar
Windy City
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Windy City »

Ah hah :oops:
Now I see what I was missing
Thanks for clarifying that
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

:thumbup:
User avatar
Windy City
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Windy City »

So with that being said I have to ask just out of curiosity, how do you run a ssr type control?
Do you just use a higher voltage element?
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

BenderDK

Mate I hope you haven't ordered that Controller yet as I remembered a better option :oops:

This one DSPR1 is the go and its cheaper . The one I linked to earlier has all the bells and whistles but you won't need most of what it does .
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

Windy City wrote:So with that being said I have to ask just out of curiosity, how do you run a ssr type control?
Do you just use a higher voltage element?
Not sure what you are asking . Do you mean if you wanted to run them across the phases ? on the 400V , yes you would need 400 V rated elements . When running across phases , this is referred to "Delta Connection "
The way I drew it is called the "star Connection " and this would be the way to use the elements that BenderDK linked to which incidentally are designed for use in Three Phase circuits .

There is no "pot in box " SCR Type controller that is available for Three phase that I am aware of at an affordable price . All that stuff is serious industrial gear with the price tag to match .

Using the SSR DA type Zero crossing relays controlled by Time proportion or Burst control is a very affordable and safe way .

My 3 phase memorys not what it was but I am pretty sure that in the "star configuration " even though the nuetral is connected , no actual current flows in that wire when all three phases are connected ....yeah , hard to get your head around but its to do with the 120 deg shift .....But it is needed because there will be a small part at the beginning and end of the cycle where the controller switches the first phase on before the next and the next . Same at the end when the switch off period occurs :crazy:
BenderDK
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by BenderDK »

HeHe

Thats fine havent placed the order yet:)

Ill look in to it :)

appicate the help
Danish Destiller :D
User avatar
Windy City
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Windy City »

Thanks for the explanation :thumbup:
The liver is evil and must be punished
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
sw_reijnders
Novice
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:12 pm
Location: a little orange country in Europe

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by sw_reijnders »

this is how I make my 3 phase controllers @ 400v delta configuration

Image

Image

Image

Image

I use it in combination with a 9000w element
in the case are 3 SSVR's
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-AC- ... 2749.l2649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I hope this gives you a push in the right direction
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Looks right. The same concept works for US 208v 3 phase. i.e. 208VG leg to leg, 120v leg to neutral.

Looking nice, that's much the same way I would build it.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Pikey »

Yummyrum wrote:Windy
In the USA what you are saying is right because for you guys that have two live wires .Each live wire is 110v with respect to nuetral but because the two live wires are 180° out of phase , there is 220v across them .
2 phase supply.jpg
.......

Thanks for that Yummy ! :D

I've been struggling to understand the US domestic stuff we get published on here - Even "searched it" in t'internet without getting what you've put here !

- So is the US stuff generated like that ? 180 out of phase ? - Seems a bit wasteful of energy in generation effort.
Johnnywhiskey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:48 pm

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Johnnywhiskey »

A couple of thoughts, actually opinions.
Yummyrum wrote:
You do not need a temp sensor for a boiler . You will only be using the PID in Manual Mode
It is Important that any PID you choose has a Manual mode and can drive an SSR in either Burst control or Time proportional Control. If it doesn't mention those words in the specs then its not the PID for you .
A temp sensor is not required in the boiler, but having one is really nice. It's pretty sweet to be able to read the boiler temp so you know when its about to produce, and when you have depleted the alcohol from the wash (the boiling temp will reach ~212F). Better yet, is really handy to be able to set your PID for a temp just below boiling and let your rig heat up with minimal supervision.

Also when you buy a PID, confirm the features with someone that already has one (especially if you buy Amazon / eBay bargains). The feature lists are very cryptic and sometimes the sellers are not exactly sure what they are selling. I was told the first PID I bought did not have a time proportional setting or autotune, but later found out it had both. I bought another assuming it would have time proportional but was mistaken.
Yummyrum wrote: But Burst fire mode is the best method as it evenly spreads the power between cycles whereas the time proportional control tends to have a cycle of around 1-2 seconds and Olddog had mentioned he could detect surge boiling happening .
I generally run my still using a phase angle controller (so I can look at the watts of input), but I have tried the time proportional on the PID and never noticed any surging. With a time control of 1 second (on and off in one second) the boil is pretty consistent--no surging. The thermal transfer from the element does not significantly change in the 0.5 sec that its turned off. My guess is that the surging is probably an issue with the still design, not the time proportional controller, unless its set to a very large time value.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by Yummyrum »

Pikey wrote: I've been struggling to understand the US domestic stuff we get published on here - Even "searched it" in t'internet without getting what you've put here !

- So is the US stuff generated like that ? 180 out of phase ? - Seems a bit wasteful of energy in generation effort.
As I am a Kiwi Living in Aussie discussing the 'Merican system to a Pom , I feel a bit out of my depth :think:

But as far as I can tell its generated and distributed in a typical 3 phase system but the street transformers have a center tapped secondary . The center tap is connected to Nuetral and the two ends of the transformer secondary are 180 deg out of phase and become the two hot wires . Its called a split phase system .
User avatar
acfixer69
Global moderator
Posts: 4826
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:34 pm
Location: CT USA

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by acfixer69 »

As I am a Kiwi Living in Aussie discussing the 'Merican system to a Pom , I feel a bit out of my depth :think:
So much said in so few words. :thumbup:

AC
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Yummyrum wrote:
Pikey wrote: I've been struggling to understand the US domestic stuff we get published on here - Even "searched it" in t'internet without getting what you've put here !

- So is the US stuff generated like that ? 180 out of phase ? - Seems a bit wasteful of energy in generation effort.
As I am a Kiwi Living in Aussie discussing the 'Merican system to a Pom , I feel a bit out of my depth :think:

But as far as I can tell its generated and distributed in a typical 3 phase system but the street transformers have a center tapped secondary . The center tap is connected to Nuetral and the two ends of the transformer secondary are 180 deg out of phase and become the two hot wires . Its called a split phase system .
That is exactly right. Power is generated as 3 phase because it sums to DC. This presents a constant load to whatever is driving the generator. Even the alternator in your car is 3 phase, which is then converted to DC.
atarijedi
Novice
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:48 am

Re: Help on controler parts.

Post by atarijedi »

Sorry for digging this up, but there is a fundamental misunderstanding of split phase power going on here.

North American split phase isn't 180 degrees out of phase, it only looks that way due to the reference points being measured. If you sum the amplitudes of 2 waveforms that are the same, but 180 degrees out of phase, they will cancel each other out, not equal the sum of the 2 of them.

Think of it like this, the secondary is like 2 AA batteries in series. The positive end is L1, the negative end is L2, and the middle is neutral.

If you measure with your DMM, using the red probe on the positive of battery 1, and the black probe on the negative of battery 1, you get 1.5V, if you measure with the red probe on positive of battery 1, and the black probe on negative of battery 2, you get 3.0V.

Now you measure the voltage of battery 2, the red DMM probe on the positive of battery 2, and the black DMM probe on the negative of battery 2, you see 1.5V, as expected. But if you take that black DMM probe, and now measure the positive of battery 1, you see -1.5V. So battery 1 is -1.5V and battery 2 is +1.5V, shouldn't that cancel out? Of course not, you are only seeing that negative voltage because of the reference points you are using to measure the battery voltage.

The same goes for split phase, you are seeing what is apparently 2 waves 180 degrees out of phase, but in reality they aren't out of phase, they are in phase, you are just measuring with the wrong reference points.

So if you were to connected an oscilloscope with probe 1 connected to L1, and it's grounding strap to N, you'd see 120V. If you then connected probe 2 to N, and it's grounding strap to L2, you'd see another 120V waveform, in phase with the first 120V, if you then summed them, you'd see the full 240V. As opposed to the out of phase waveforms if you connected the probes to L1 and L2, and both their grounding straps to N, if you summed those, you'd see 0V.
Post Reply