Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

If it plugs in, post it here.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

Looking in my circuit breaker box I have a regular 40 amp breaker that runs my stove that I'm planning to use for my 5500w heating element as well. I'd like to know if its worth it all to make the change to a GFCI breaker? If so, is there anything else i would need? Please keep in mind I'm not real electrical literate :crazy:
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Expat »

Are you planning to have water anywhere near your still? Presumably the answer is Yes since you'll be using it for coolant. In which case the answer to your question is also Yes.

If you value your life and health, include a GFCI in your planning. If you're not comfortable with the installation hire a professional and stay safe.

Personally, I have a 50amp Spa GFCI in line with my power outlet.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

ExpatLad wrote:Are you planning to have water anywhere near your still? Presumably the answer is Yes since you'll be using it for coolant. In which case the answer to your question is also Yes.

If you value your life and health, include a GFCI in your planning. If you're not comfortable with the installation hire a professional and stay safe.

Personally, I have a 50amp Spa GFCI in line with my power outlet.
Okay, would i be able to put a 40 amp gfci breaker in place of the current 40 amp breaker? Or are there other things that would need to be changed in order to make that work?
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by still_stirrin »

It will work.

Here’s a Square-D GFCI breaker. A Cutler-Hammer is even more (expensive). It depends on what kind of panel you have as to what make of breaker you need.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Ho ... /203277035" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If you’re worried about installation, get an electrician to do it for you. I assume you already have the wiring for a 40 amp breaker, right?
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Expat »

What Still said ^^
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

still_stirrin wrote:It will work.

Here’s a Square-D GFCI breaker. A Cutler-Hammer is even more (expensive). It depends on what kind of panel you have as to what make of breaker you need.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Ho ... /203277035" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If you’re worried about installation, get an electrician to do it for you. I assume you already have the wiring for a 40 amp breaker, right?
ss
That’s correct, it’s already wired for 220. And my circuit box is the square d brand. I wasn’t sure if I’d be able to just change the breaker out and that be all or if I’d have to change anything else
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Expat »

All the changes required should be within the breaker panel. Breaker brand needs to match that of your panel.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

ExpatLad wrote:All the changes required should be within the breaker panel. Breaker brand needs to match that of your panel.
Alright, thanks fellas! :thumbup:
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by shadylane »

FlintHills wrote:Looking in my circuit breaker box I have a regular 40 amp breaker that runs my stove that I'm planning to use for my 5500w heating element as well. I'd like to know if its worth it all to make the change to a GFCI breaker? If so, is there anything else i would need?
Does the 240v stove receptacle have 3 or 4 pins :?:
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

shadylane wrote:
FlintHills wrote:Looking in my circuit breaker box I have a regular 40 amp breaker that runs my stove that I'm planning to use for my 5500w heating element as well. I'd like to know if its worth it all to make the change to a GFCI breaker? If so, is there anything else i would need?
Does the 240v stove receptacle have 3 or 4 pins :?:
It is a 3 pin receptacle
Johnnywhiskey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:48 pm

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Johnnywhiskey »

Currents between 0.1 and 0.2 amps are considered lethal. A 40 amp breaker is good for stopping a major short, maybe stopping a fire, but won't save you life.

I'm not an electrician, but pretty sure you don't need a neutral or a ground for for a GFCI. Even with just two hots for 240v the GFCI will determine if all of the power is equal on both hots, and blow if they are not, i.e., if it's shorting to ground.
Johnnywhiskey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:48 pm

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Johnnywhiskey »

For visual learners:

Image
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Expat »

Johnnywhiskey wrote:Currents between 0.1 and 0.2 amps are considered lethal. A 40 amp breaker is good for stopping a major short, maybe stopping a fire, but won't save you life.

I'm not an electrician, but pretty sure you don't need a neutral or a ground for for a GFCI. Even with just two hots for 240v the GFCI will determine if all of the power is equal on both hots, and blow if they are not, i.e., if it's shorting to ground.
A ground isn't required, only a circuit, i.e. hot-neutral or hot-hot in the case of 240. As with all GFCI the level of protection is specified by the individual device, nothing will render a short (through you) to ground completely harmless. However, it can easily be the difference between injury and death. Also it's more likely that it will fault while you are not in direct contact which means you don't find out about the problem when you wake up in hospital (hopefully).

Yeah safety costs, but it's far cheaper than the alternative.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

Johnnywhiskey wrote:Currents between 0.1 and 0.2 amps are considered lethal. A 40 amp breaker is good for stopping a major short, maybe stopping a fire, but won't save you life.

I'm not an electrician, but pretty sure you don't need a neutral or a ground for for a GFCI. Even with just two hots for 240v the GFCI will determine if all of the power is equal on both hots, and blow if they are not, i.e., if it's shorting to ground.
That makes me wonder if it would be better to put in a whole new circuit that has 4 wires
zach
Swill Maker
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:42 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by zach »

I'm looking at this spa GFCI panel to plug into my 50 A 3 wire stove outlet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B ... PDKIKX0DER" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
User avatar
acfixer69
Global moderator
Posts: 4826
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:34 pm
Location: CT USA

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by acfixer69 »

Quote "That makes me wonder if it would be better to put in a whole new circuit that has 4 wires"

You will only need the fourth wire if you need 120V at the boiler.

AC
User avatar
FlintHills
Novice
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by FlintHills »

acfixer69 wrote:Quote "That makes me wonder if it would be better to put in a whole new circuit that has 4 wires"

You will only need the fourth wire if you need 120V at the boiler.

AC
I don’t believe I’ll be needing that but I appreciate the clarification AC
Aarcuda
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:01 am

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Aarcuda »

I am in the process of designing a 220v heating element controller and wanted to use a GFCI device in the box or at the plug, socket or breaker panel but the design will be using one of the legs of the of the 220 and a neutral for a 120v accessory outlet on the controller for a pump or something. So I think that if I do this it will unbalance the leg and throw the GFCI. Any ideas on how to get a GFCI on the two hots and use one hot for powering something else without tripping the GFCI?
ttocs
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:31 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by ttocs »

You'll want a 2-pole, 4 prong outlet going to your controller as you want a ground and neutral. The neutral will allow you to create a 110 circuit in your box. The 2 poles are both 110, so in your controller you can split them after the main power switch to run various components at 110. What you end up with is of the 2 110s, 1 goes directly to your SSR then to a heating element switch then to heating element. The other goes to a bus to power all your 110 components and off the bus into the same heating element switch the other 110 line from SSR is going two.

The above is assuming you are using a SSR vs some other power regulation. If you are going the SSR route, do consider an SSVR paired with a digital power regulator like the DSPR400 from Auber. I've been super happy with it.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Yummyrum »

ttocs wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:55 am If you are going the SSR route, do consider an SSVR paired with a digital power regulator like the DSPR400 from Auber.
ttocs ,
This is the second time today someone had mentioned using an Auber DSPR 400 with an SSRV .

It is wrong terminology . Look , I’m not trying be a pedantic wanker , just save some poor buggers from buying the wrong parts and blowing them up :thumbdown: .

The term SSRV is a common reference to a Solid state Voltage Regulator . Or more commonly known around here as being the “Black box “ you connect a Pot to that will control your element power . These devises have the part numbers SSR 25 VR or SSR 40 VR . They are also numbered SSR 25 VA and SSR 40 VA .

The 25 or 40 indicates how much current they can handle . The VR or VA descriptor indicates that it is controlled by a Pot .


Now , the Auber series of controllers DSPR1 DSPR 400 etc ( and most PID’s) are designed to drive a Digital SSR such as SSR 25 DA , SSR 40 DA etc .

The VR and DA versions of SSR are completely different and not interchangable .

Please fellas , when you are referring to Digital type DA SSR’s don’t call them SSRV’s ..... they are not . :crazy:

Rant over :oops:
ttocs
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:31 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by ttocs »

@Yummyrum, totally fair correction. After further reading I understand what you're talking about.

What I was trying to point out is how the Auber DSPR functions differently when in PID mode vs Power Regulator mode with the latter resulting in a smooth regulated power output from a SSR. In PID it operates as expected using time proportion firing. In power regulation mode it uses burst firing, timing it with the AC cycle. It detects the frequency and phase so the pulse width and firing time is synchronized with the AC cycle.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Do I need a GFCI Breaker?

Post by Yummyrum »

ttocs wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:46 pm @Yummyrum, totally fair correction. After further reading I understand what you're talking about.
Cool ttocs you did extra homework :thumbup:

Sorry I wasn’t having a personal go at you . Just trying to stop an explosion of incorrect terminology before it spread like wild fire across the forum .
Post Reply