need help with electrical element

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huxley
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need help with electrical element

Post by huxley »

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My still is an 8 gallon milk can. I only used it maybe 4 times, thank god I still have a 5 gallon I can place on stove top.



I have a 120 heating element with an control box set for 120 v.
I bought them bought from a company selling stills.

I'd like to ask an expert, if they would know what went wrong here.
I never opened it when I recieved it. I didnt expose it to water.

If my wires fried, would that have created rust?
I never ran the still on high , because it would create a buzzing sound.
Are heating elements and the metal casing a risk of electric shock?

how do I prevent this from happening, and what is the fasest heating element and element guard housing (element enclosure)


this is the set up I had bought https://www.olympicdistillers.com/disti ... controller" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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BayouShine
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by BayouShine »

That's fried like a bucket of chicken! :shock:

There must have been a short somewhere. Something must not have been shielded and it arc'd across.
zapata
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by zapata »

If I understand that setup, a leak at the triclamp/gasket could have flooded the wiring and caused a lot of corosion. Some designs specifically stress making the wiring covering have at least a weep hole so that a leak can not go undetected.

Is that a risk for electric shock? hell yes! I can barely even see what is left. It's not even obvious there was a ground wire. For sure it had a ground though, right? But the link shows a simple 2 prong plug? Running any ungrounded electric setup is bad form. An ungrounded wet electric setup even crazier. And I for one will not ever run a setup without grounding the kettle and having ground fault interupt protection (GFI/GFCI).

Was it a leak causing corrosion or faulty wiring from the beginning? I don't know, we've got some sparkies on board who can probably guess. But unless there was a way to ground the element/kettle that I can't see from their site, it was a bad design from the beginning and you're lucky you caught it.
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by cob »

have you contacted the people you bought that from or sent them a picture ?
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by zapata »

I think you can see the 2 prong plug here. Not sure how you get hot, neutral and ground on 2 plugs?
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seamusm53
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by seamusm53 »

The controller box may be grounded but the heater itself with only a two pronged plug sure wasn't. Your picture shows the result of a short and likely where the cord was screwed to the heater - poor quality control. Chinese made anyone?
If you had been touching your still while in contact with a ground.....could have been a problem. And while none of us probably run our electrically heated stills while barefoot, an accidental spill soaking our shoes makes safety from the getgo a necessity - and that means fully grounded appliances, dry work-space, sobriety, etc.
Not to leave un-mentioned an electrical spark/fire in the presence of alcohol fumes....... Me thinks your guardian angel likes you.
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by StillerBoy »

huxley wrote:I'd like to ask an expert, if they would know what went wrong here.
I never opened it when I recieved it. I didnt expose it to water.
Very simple.. water leaked from improper seal..

It's an assume idea, that when we buy something new, that it was properly put together, also to assume that, is somewhat of a bad behavior when playing with water and electricity..

Whenever a new boiler using electricity as a means of heating, one should fill the boiler with water, and give it 24 hrs test for leaks at the fittings before usage.. also whenever an element is removed to be cleaned or a new replacement.. always a 24 hrs water test..

Mars
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Pikey
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by Pikey »

Your wires coatings melted because they got hot.

That sort of damage is usually seen on cheapo plugs, which use aluminium or thin copper for the connectors. some use a steel push fit to connect to the pins. at these Ampages, that is really a bad idea. The heat is caused by a higher than normal resistance at the junction of the wire to the terminals, which may be due to a number of issues BUT it is always caused by a high resistance junction and high ampages (your voltage is irrelevant )

Rust (if that is rust) is a pretty good reason why you would get high resistance - if it got between the faces of the contacts.

Rust could have come from a leakage, or just storage in dampish conditions.

However, you should have smelled that coating scorching long before that stage - was the still left unattended ?

I always feel the plugs and connectors on mine 2 or 3 times during a run to feel if they are getting overly warm.
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'm not an electrician but I know a little about electronics, circuits, and wiring.

It looks like there's three wires on the element end of the connection. The frayed one would probably be ground and should have continuity to the chassis / metal housing of the element connector... The hot and neutral should have continuity to each conductor on the plug end. Since the plug end appears to only have two electrical connections I am interested to see which wires and chassis points have conductivity to the plug end terminations.

You can measure this with the ohm setting on a VOM or DMM meter.

Anyway, I agree that it looks toasted and probably one of the connections was not terminated tight enough.

You should send your photo's to the company asap and hopefully they will support their product and send you a new one asap. Please let the group here know whether they do.

I also agree that if anything had burnt you would have smelled it - you should have certainly shut the system down for safety sake and troubleshot form there.

Let the still cool then xfer the cooled charge into vessel for storage until you can get back to running it. Then take out the element and inspect.

Cheers!
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huxley
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by huxley »

thanks everyone for the help. Yeah it's kind of an eye opener that I could have seriously hurt myself. I'm not electrical savvy, I read alot of books on distilling and always take the caution side when making alcohol, but I guess I'm very uneducated to the dangers of a heated still via heating element. I need to do better.
(I've touch my still while on to feel to see how far the heat has reach the collum


Okay I'll respond to some of the questions:

Response from company:
The elements have a 90 day warranty. I have no way to tell what caused the damage. We sell replacements on our website.
Best Regards,


question about ground: yes there was a ground plug attached to the element , ring wire connector attached to a screw on the element plate.
- The plug does have a ground ( 3 prong plug)
- I never leave my still unattended.
- I think moister or water someone got in from the back end of the housing guard, the treads on the guard to the element are not rusty compared to the opening from the wire.
- I think that the wire casing might have been very cheap aswell.
- after use, I've never left my equipment in damp places.
- the pictures on the website are a little different than what I have.


_ i think it comes down to cheap products. I I need to inform myself better on how to protect myself and others , If I choose to go back to an electric element set up.
I noticed that most people go with a 240 v set up, I can only do the 110v element because of the limitations of my living situation right now,
but my question is, have most people been successful with a 110v element set in avoid what I've went through??


Thank you.

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huxley
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by huxley »

bump...
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rgreen2002
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by rgreen2002 »

Until I installed a 240 outlet in my basement I ran 2 120v ULWD elements in my 24-gallon boiler. It was more than enough power, just slightly slower heat up times. I ran one full on and I regulated the other. When I got to temp I would unplug one and use the regulated one for temp adjustments.

For 120v LWD I have seen up to 1650W: https://smile.amazon.com/Dernord-Foldba ... ement+120v" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I think this is about as high as 120V will go. Be careful not to get a high watt density (they go up to 2000W on 120) as it will increase your chances of scorching.

Bobby from brewhardware sells a "hotpot" element: https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1895.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I have had 2 for about 5 years and never had one issue... I wired it up with a 16 gauge extension cord I bought from Harbor Freight if I remember correctly... :think:

As a matter of fact, I just broke one down to install a 1500W 120v outlet for my new small still that I am in the middle of building...

Good Luck and Be Safe!
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StillerBoy
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by StillerBoy »

huxley wrote: I'm not electrical savvy,
You don't have to be electrical savvy.. that where google come in.. today on the web you can find anything you want on how to do it, one has to just take the time to do so..

As with anything, we take thing for granted to often, which give us results we done like.. a few things one must always be mindful to do is 1) to double check the work just done, in electrical it means to check with meter, and 2) went changing an element for cleaning or a new one, always give it a water test for 24 hrs, with at least 15-16" above the element, and 3) never assume its all ok because it is new when you purchase parts..

When I started many yrs back, I didn't know shit about electrical, but with the web I learned, didn't know shit about stilling but learned, and now still learning on how to work with yeast, keep it and which is best for the mash I am doing.. there is no such thing as not learning.. the tools are all there, we just have to use them

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HDNB
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by HDNB »

no reason you can't repair and re-terminate the cord onto the element. clean it all up, put some teflon tape on those threads so it doesn't leak to avoid the same problem.

since you are limited by the power supply in your living space, the only real problem this set up has over a 240 setup is that it will be slower.
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by zapata »

huxley wrote:
293g7qs.jpg
11k827p.jpg
Hey guys, aren't those 15 amp plugs he's got there? Both the outlet on the controller and the male plugs? I thought all 20 amp plugs and outlets had the t slot for one prong, and all male 20 amp plugs had one of the prongs to match?

If so, a 2000 watt 120v element pulls 16.6 amps, the whole design is faulty.

Huxley, do you know if you were using a 20 amp outlet and circuit in your home? (On second thought, I wouldn't answer that publicly if you weren't, keep that detail to yourself until you're happy with how this is finally handled)
For the circuit you'd have to check your breaker in your panel box, but for the outlet it will look like this:
duplex_15amp_20amp.jpg
Do the plugs or cord have any writing on them anywhere, now I'm also seriously wondering what gauge that wire is.

I think that thing is an unsafe design. It is built in a way as to be able to overload outlets and circuits, not to mention it's own components.
Or am I wrong? Do they make 20A gear in the standard 15A shape?

Edit to add, 3 things.
1. The website specifically states a 20 amp outlet is needed, so certainly it is clear all the components should be 20 A themselves.
2. If those are indeed 15 A components, I think at the VERY least a full refund and boot licking apology is in order. At $170 that thing wasn't cheap either.
3. I'm not usually sue happy, but I would be incredibly pissed at someone recklessly willing to burn my house down and I'm sure a judge would agree. It is one thing for a hobbyist to not know electrical, it is another entirely for a business. I think a decent financial hit is the only way to really learn that lesson. I would ask nicely for a non-trivial settlement and destruction of remaining stock, once.
Of course, maybe I'm wrong and over reacting, but I don't think so. An electrician should be able to tell at a glance.

Does anybody know Olympic distillers? That's up in Z Bob's neck o the woods, I wonder if he knows him?
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by StillerBoy »

+1 on zapata post.. and a very good catch..

To run a 2000w element, you need at least a 12 gauge wire to you plug, and 20 amp breaker.. anything less will heat up and melt the plastic, and you know the rest..

I'm in agreement on returning the unit back and requesting a refund..

Mars
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by HDNB »

Zapata! 3 AM and you're on the ball, good catch!

it took fresh eyes this morning for me to even see the threads i referred to were just for the wire cover and were actually holding water in, not out. the water must have leaked past the element itself? or was it introduced some other way, during cleaning perhaps?

great advise to check all the power ratings of wire, switches and plugs!
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by sltm1 »

OK, early morning sleuthing, working on my 1st cup of coffee.

1. Judging from the pic, the wires are the proper gauge for the element
2. Moisture was the culprit for sure (took some repeated drenching to make rust that thick)
3. Heat from bad wiring would have showed up in the body of the wire also
4. No teflon tape on the threads to prevent leaking from tank entering the connection

I'm a bit confused about the statement that too much power was drawn from the outlet, you can only draw what's available. I run a 5500w element which gives me 1375w off a 110 outlet with a 7 gallon still (filled to 6) still and I start dripping in an hour and a half +/-.

More coffee, done all the thinking I can do on one cup
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cede
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Re: need help with electrical element

Post by cede »

Looks like a sanitary coupling.
So maybe there was a pinhole leak at where the element passes trough the coupling.
Just a few drops of water or moisture trapped can make a resistance between hot and neutral or ground and produce heat which could have led to wire insulation trouble and then corrosion of the wires.
But it's a slow process.
Without a gfci it's harder to notice that as the current leak will not trip the breakers.
Water and power never match well.

As sltm1 said, wiring heat would have shown to the weakest point on the cable that is most of the time the plug, where contacts loose after a while.
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