Going to Electric! HELP!!

[Shawnr0517]

Ok y’all... I’m running a keg with tower, I’m wanting to convert from propane to heating element for certain reasons. What type of element and controller do y’all recommend for this.. I’m looking for Safety as well as reliability but again I am just running a keg setup! Thanks for all input!

[Midwest]

Camco low watt density ripple element. just get a simple output controller that has a dial on it. I would go 220 if you can. They sell them on Ebay for a couple hundred dollars. I run 5500 watt element on my keg

[zapata]

Stilldragon's controller kit hands down unless you really know electricity, parts, and shopping for deals.

radius cut solderable triclamp adaptor for the element:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2rsf.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I'd go 2" just because you're likely to already have some 2" triclamps for the top so might as well keep it the same, though 1.5" works fine.
Get it in kit form and get the right solder and flux from there too if you want.

Your choice for the element guard. I have brewhardware's version, have seen stilldragons, can't say I have a strong opinion of one over the other.
Your choice for element, brewhardware has some full stainless elements, I use a normal camco domestic ULWD element cheap from amazon and just don't let it sit long enough for the non-stainless base to rust.

You'll need a way to cut the hole in the keg, I really like punches over drills or hole saws. You can spend good money on them though, like $80+ for each size. Greenlee is the name brand, and they are awesome, but again pricey.
https://www.harborfreight.com/knockout- ... 60575.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow is a cheap set that gets close enough. The largest punch is 1 1/4" nominal but 1 3/4" true. Makes a perfect hole, but if used for a 2" TC adapter will need a small V filed at the bottom so you don't have a place to trap liquid.
A little more money, but will be able to use any punch in the future is
https://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic ... 96718.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It comes with a 1 15/16 punch which is damn near perfect for the 2" TC fitting. It does leave a 1/32" ridge, but it's small enough you can just solder on the fitting offset just a bit so the bottom is flush.
Don't forget to find a 20% off coupon before buying from HF, they are always out there.

[Bushman]

I have StillDragons controller and it can't be easier to install and run. Also recommend going 220 as my heat up time on an 11 gallon run is about 20 minutes.

[zapata]

I haven't been on brewhardware in a while, but this is pretty cool! It's a press through tool to make a dimple flange to solder in a 1.5" triclamp. This might be even cooler than their radius cut flange with the wide base for soldering.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/ ... ol15tc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
They even consider it a rental program, tool costs $30, buy it and they'll buy it back for $20 when you're done. Freaking cool.

[Hoosier Shine9]

I have StillDragons controller and it can't be easier to install and run. Also recommend going 220 as my heat up time on an 11 gallon run is about 20 minutes.

+1...
When I ordered the controller kit I ordered the "large" cause I have fat hands & fingers.
it has easy to follow directions to wire it up. and works like a dream.
I went to Harbor Freight and bought a Clamp-On Digital Multimeter (uses a 9v battery, just need to remember to turn it off). My plan is to add an amp meter on the box at some point but this was the quickest & easiest at the time.

[Soft batch]

If you are somewhat adept are wiring, the 10kw controllers on ebay/amazon work just fine.

[cede]

For the element, I bought this : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N2WI65Y
It's 2" triclamp and protected wire connection, not bad for the price.

Best is to have a triclamp welded to the keg.

[rgreen2002]

If you are somewhat adept are wiring, the 10kw controllers on ebay/amazon work just fine.

+1

viewtopic.php?t=62655

I built my own easily and then helped ddizzle22 through his as well. It's a nice little controller and pretty straightforward. I agree with going 220v if you can as well!

[Pikey]

If you are somewhat adept are wiring, the 10kw controllers on ebay/amazon work just fine.

+1

viewtopic.php?t=62655

I built my own easily and then helped ddizzle22 through his as well. It's a nice little controller and pretty straightforward. I agree with going 220v if you can as well!

+2 The saving on buying ebay stuff, will readily pay for an electronics book !

Seriously though - they're simple enough to wire. If you undersatnd why the wires go on which terminals when you're wiring a plug, then the chinese ones are no great problem, even if the instructions could be better written.

Somebody said "Couple a hundred bucks" - Jeez my whole electric still (25 litres) with all the copperwork and the controller cost less than that to make.

[NineInchNails]

These are the nicest Element Adapters/Element Guards I have found:
Still Dragon Element Guard
Brewers Hardware Element Adapter

There are at least a couple companies now that make a 5500W ripple foldback elements with the threaded portion that is stainless steel. Other elements are plated if I recall correctly. It's a worthwhile thing to get.

You could build a really nice little controller using an Auber EZboil, a Solid State Relay, Heatsink, enclosure box and a little wiring. The Auber EZboil will not display amps, it will only display 1-100 on the digital readout. If you read the products description you'll understand why. Basically the EZboil pulses at the rate you set to simulate 1% to 100% power of the element.

[zapata]

It's probably worth mentioning GFCI. I personally would not ever run without it. Assuming you're in the USA and looking to use 220-240v, this will be an additional expense as very few homes have GFCI protection on their 240 circuits. If you don't really know how GFCI works, the simplest analogy is that it senses when you are about to be electrocuted, and magically shuts off the power before you get electrocuted. Or pretty much when any power goes anywhere it's not supposed to be. Regular circuit breakers only protect from drawing more power than designed, so they can sit there all day pumping your corpse with 5500 watts and not trip.

Your options for GFCI are either to replace the circuit breaker in your panel box ($100-$400 for the breaker), wire a GFCI "spa panel" between your outlet and your controller ($60-$100), or buy an inline GFCI plug adaptor ($100-$300).

Some choose to forgo GFCI for their electric setups, but you specifically state safety as one of your motivations to go E, so I think it would be shortsighted to skip it.

[Expat]

+1 to GFCI

They cost, but they're a lot cheaper than a hospital visit or a funeral.

[Pikey]

It's probably worth mentioning GFCI. I personally would not ever run without it. Assuming you're in the USA and looking to use 220-240v, this will be an additional expense as very few homes have GFCI protection on their 240 circuits. If you don't really know how GFCI works, the simplest analogy is that it senses when you are about to be electrocuted, and magically shuts off the power before you get electrocuted. ............

Over here we have RCDs (Residual Current Device) or some call them "Earth Leakage Trips" - which sound a bit simlar. What does GFCI stand for ?

Sometimes they can be a real pain tho' and we had a Baby Belling Cooker, which kept tripping - Had to disconnect the Earth wire and have it on full for an hour, to dry the think out before reconnecting. Worked fine after that. Had it on a few appliances which have stood for a while. They're fine after they are warmed up for a while.

If your GFCIs are the same, bear that in mind if your still keeps tripping it after standing a few months.

[Expat]

ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)

Unless your device has a large electric motor or has serious issues it shouldn't be tripping. Essentially this would mean that current is running through a unintended route, I.e. to ground or through you.

[zapata]

Looks like RCD's are GFCI's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Though apparently some older UK installations had a single separate RCD rather than the most common modern usage in the US which incorporates an RCD with an individual circuit breaker.

Whole installations on a single RCD, common in older installations in the UK, are prone to "nuisance" trips that can cause secondary safety problems with loss of lighting and defrosting of food. Frequently the trips are caused by deteriorating insulation on heater elements, such as water heaters and cooker elements or rings. Although regarded as a nuisance, the fault is with the deteriorated element and not the RCD: replacement of the offending element will resolve the problem, but replacing the RCD will not.

And yes, I could see that being a nuisance. I actually run my spare freezer off a short extension cord to a non-GFCI circuit just so it doesn't thaw out if there is a nuisance trip.

[Pikey]

Looks like RCD's are GFCI's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Though apparently some older UK installations had a single separate RCD rather than the most common modern usage in the US which incorporates an RCD with an individual circuit breaker.

Whole installations on a single RCD, common in older installations in the UK, are prone to "nuisance" trips that can cause secondary safety problems with loss of lighting and defrosting of food. Frequently the trips are caused by deteriorating insulation on heater elements, such as water heaters and cooker elements or rings. Although regarded as a nuisance, the fault is with the deteriorated element and not the RCD: replacement of the offending element will resolve the problem, but replacing the RCD will not.

And yes, I could see that being a nuisance. I actually run my spare freezer off a short extension cord to a non-GFCI circuit just so it doesn't thaw out if there is a nuisance trip.

Yes I thought they probably were the same thing.

Interesting the quote says "Deteriorated insulation on elements" - That is not actually the case. The insulation is within the heater elements and separates the heat producing element from the casing. What happens is that if the element is not used for a period and sits in a humid atmsphere, the insulation absorbs a little moisture from the air (A bit like 100% ethanol would) and those RCDs are set so fine that the tiniest leakage fires them off. THe resolution is simple enough - just heat the element on a non-RCD connection, for a little while to dry out the element, and then "reconnect the earth " !

THis is probably the reason why the cooker connection is NOT RCD "protected" - else peple would be calling out the manufacturers to "Repair" their "Faulty" cookers all the time !

Personally I would not use GFCI / RCD on a still element, but if you do, just be aware that if it trips and you have not used it for a while, it may not be a "real" fault at all !

I would ensure the still casing had a proper path to earth - even a nmetal rod hammered into the ground and a simple wire connected to it if your lead does not have an "earth" - although very few people are killed by mains electric - even here in UK where "mains" is 240 v as standard, because of the application of Ohms LAw - You are not going to become a conductor for 5Kw - because the resistance of the human body is normally in Megohms ! - Try it with a multimeter - just hold a probe in each hand and measure your resistance ! That slows down the Amperage a fair bit ! Yes it will "Bite You" but also being AC it will "Throw you off" at the same time.

To my mind, something far more sinister will be shown by holding the two probes of an oscilloscope - one in each hand and investigating the signal produced ! - Try it if you get access to one ! - Scary stuff !

[Johnnywhiskey]

+2 on the GFCI/RCD. I've never had mine trip, but I would rather it trip than have an unknown ground fault--however small. It only takes 100mA for a fatal shock--so yea, they are sensitive.

I think the bad rap for false GFCI trips is from older electric motors. The old brushes had a lot of arcing that could trigger the interrupt. I had a cousin that complained of an old fridge that kept tripping his GFCI circuit. Newer motors are better, I regularly run electric pumps off of my control box with no problems.

If my GFCI kept tripping, I would want to know so I could figure out the problem.

Stay Thirsty, JW

[Expat]

Ya you won't catch fire like a human torch...
But as little as 200mA passing through the body can cause ventricular fibrillation and death, not to mention burns and nerve damage. You might get knocked away, but the damage might already be done.

Better to be safe than sorry.

Edit: Seems like Johnywhiskey ninja'd me

[Pikey]

Ya you won't catch fire like a human torch...
But as little as 200mA passing through the body can cause ventricular fibrillation and death, not to mention burns and nerve damage. You might get knocked away, but the damage might already be done.

Better to be safe than sorry.

Edit: Seems like Johnywhiskey ninja'd me

200mA will kill you stone dead !

Calculate your body resistance using a multimeter and calculate the Amperage you would generate ! - then factor in that the current alternaates at 50 Hz (or whatever US cycles / sec is) and see what risk you run !

[cede]

200mA will kill you stone dead !

Like a forgotten sausage on BBQ

You can not really measure your body resistance with a 10$ multimeter, but you can try.

at 20mA, your thoracic cage will tetanize
at 30mA you'll have hard time breathing if any
at 40mA your heart will fibrilate but you can survive if it's under a few seconds
Over, you can be considered as dead.

Most of the house main breakers with a ground fault sensing were 20mA in EU.
For bathrooms, I used 5mA because you're more likely to be barefoot and wet

Here, I saw they are around 6mA.
When you wire it don't forget to wire the neutral else, it won't work

[Expat]

Yeah, that was a phone typo lol was supposed to be 20.

[Od1tspyd3r]

Saw this post and had to chime in, I just finished building a very similar controller. I will definitely second the idea of buying still dragons large box kit and order a annmeter from Amazon like 15 bucks. Have it all hooked up to a 5500w camco. [img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201803 ... 7cee52.jpg[/img][img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201803 ... 0a7c99.jpg[/img]

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

[Nunyo]

I was in the same boat a couple weeks ago as I am building my new still and will be going electric. I spent a lot of time reading here on the forum.
These are a couple threads that were instrumental for me when considering my parts list and wiring.

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=62655

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=44557

Edited to add one more thread that was instrumental.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43456

This is what I came up with and built including my parts list.

Here is a breakdown of all the parts.

I used this SCR controller. I bought 2 so I have a spare.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC110V-220V-10 ... 3432913042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This dial face for the above controller. This wasn't needed but i thought it added a finished touch to the enclosure.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M9GZIC1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This NMEA enclosure. I could have gone cheaper but I wanted one that was rugged with plenty of room inside:
tps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OG1X7K4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I used this circuit breaker as the power switch. I could have used a simple 220v 30a wall type switch but I wanted something a bit more robust:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013SWPSY4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

These rails to mount the above breaker in the box. I cut the rail to fit the box and used standoffs and long screws to mount the rail so the face of the breaker would stick out through the face of the enclosure.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0159JLOCE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This digital amp/volt meter
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YY1KOHA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This 30amp L6 30R and L6-30P outlet and plug. I bought a couple of these so I had an outlet for my wall and for my controller box.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Amp-250-Vol ... 3309669606" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This 220/240v fan for keeping the controller enclosure nice and cool.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/220V-240V-8cm- ... 2756981482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

These fan filters for keeping dust out of the enclosure. One went on the intake side and I used a standard fan grill over the fan side which pushes out.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00315C03G/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And finally, this 5500w tri clamp heater element that has an L6-30P plug connection on it. It made it nice and easy to disconnect the power from the heater while leaving the heater in the boiler.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075KHLJ69/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Below are photos of the complete box and a picture when I was doing my testing after the build.

[Pikey]

200mA will kill you stone dead !

Like a forgotten sausage on BBQ

You can not really measure your body resistance with a 10$ multimeter, but you can try.

at 20mA, your thoracic cage will tetanize
at 30mA you'll have hard time breathing if any
at 40mA your heart will fibrilate but you can survive if it's under a few seconds
Over, you can be considered as dead.

Most of the house main breakers with a ground fault sensing were 20mA in EU.
For bathrooms, I used 5mA because you're more likely to be barefoot and wet

Here, I saw they are around 6mA.
When you wire it don't forget to wire the neutral else, it won't work

Not quite sure what you are saying here - but 5 mA is about the limit for survival !

BUT - the human body is HIGH resistance !

Most of the house main breakers with a ground fault sensing were 20mA in EU.


So what ?

[cede]

Most of the house main breakers with a ground fault sensing were 20mA in EU.
So what ?

So.. when you have this on your main entry you are protected everywhere in your house.
It was just a remark.
Electricity in US/CAN seems ages away from EU.

Not quite sure what you are saying here - but 5 mA is about the limit for survival !
BUT - the human body is HIGH resistance !

I don't know where you got your numbers.
If you get stuck at 5 mA, yes you probably can die after a certain amount of time, and maybe not.

Yes the human body is high resistance, around 100K Ohms, dry, per the book.
Well, in fact I would not call this high resistance as it can be as low as under a K.
But it's not that simple. We are not resistors, so we can not be modelled as pure resistance. We're more like resistance and inductance combined.
Current takes some time to establish.

Let's play a bit: 240V/100 000 Ohms= 2,4mA
You won't die and your 5mA breaker won't trip.
Will it be like this in real life ?

Just by pressing fingers around a wire can modify the resistance of the path because your skin is sweating.
But seriously, there are too many factors that we can not take into account here.

We could talk and argue for hours about physics and biology behind electrocution, skin burning and other painful things that can happen with humans playing with electricity.
I already made my time back at univ when I studied that.

The only thing to remember is: always be on the safe side and protect yourself.

[Pikey]

Most of the house main breakers with a ground fault sensing were 20mA in EU.
So what ?

So.. when you have this on your main entry you are protected everywhere in your house.
It was just a remark.
Electricity in US/CAN seems ages away from EU.

Not quite sure what you are saying here - but 5 mA is about the limit for survival !
BUT - the human body is HIGH resistance !

I don't know where you got your numbers.
............

THey can be quite important when you make your living repairing TVs and poking about in the works of a CAthode Ray Tube set with it switched on.

[Pikey]

Most of the house main breakers with a ground fault sensing were 20mA in EU.
So what ?

So.. when you have this on your main entry you are protected everywhere in your house.
It was just a remark.
Electricity in US/CAN seems ages away from EU.

Not quite sure what you are saying here - but 5 mA is about the limit for survival !
BUT - the human body is HIGH resistance !

I don't know where you got your numbers.
............

THey can be quite important when you make your living repairing TVs and poking about in the works of a CAthode Ray Tube set with it switched on.

[Edit - I guess in practice, they would give us a lower value (5mA) than a real 50% survival rate would indicate. ]

And yes in Uk we have a 240 volt true sine wave AC - whereas I believe in US you have 240 derived from two sine waves back to back, so I don't know for certain, but it may be more ikely to "Stick you to it" Whereas ours is more likely to "Throw you off". I would like to understand your system better but have not found a proper explanation of it yet.]

[cede]

We are not talking about cathodic tubes, or more generally electronic tubes which work on the same principle and need high DC voltages that can be lethal because of the energy stored by inductors and capacitors needed to filter the current ripple.
Chances are GF breaker will not trip if you get shocked by DC while repairing a TV because of the transformer involved in the power supply.
Well, there are not that much CRT tubes TV left !

Every country using rotating alternators to produce electricity generate pure sine wave
Electricity, each side of the pond, is 3 phases hi voltage in the network.
Then it's transformed down to 230V in UK and 240V is US/CAN single phase.
The main difference is that you use a full phase, and that we split the phase in 2 by choosing to place neutral in the middle of the transformer wiring.
This gives 120V each side of the neutral in opposed phase, and 240V between the 2 hots, but still a single phase.

The stick/throw effect is related to AC/DC circuit breakage phenomenon and human body impedance.
IEC did experiments and published the results that you can find on google I think.

[Pikey]

We are not talking about cathodic tubes, or more generally electronic tubes which work on the same principle and need high DC voltages that can be lethal because of the energy stored by inductors and capacitors needed to filter the current ripple.
Chances are GF breaker will not trip if you get shocked by DC while repairing a TV because of the transformer involved in the power supply.
Well, there are not that much CRT tubes TV left !

What you say here may be true of US spec TVs - I do not know.

However UK TVs worked on a different system called PAL (Phase Alternate Line) which switched the Phase of the "line" from each line to the next and was therefore stable. PAL sets charge the coating on the inside of the tube itself to the 20,000 volts. We did not have problems with "current ripple" so none of the "Capacitors and Inductors" you speak of, although I know there were issues with US TVs which operated on NTSC system. I don't know what NTSC actually stands for but we used to call it "Never Twice the Same Colour", exactly because of those issues.

A Bite from the 20,000 volts was unlikely to be fatal because it behaved more as "Static" and therefore had no real "Amperage" - unlike getting a bite off that 12,000 volt transformer in a microwave - which DOES have amps (and is the real reason "they" don't want the punters messing with microwaves- nothing to do with "magnetrons" )

However, the burden of my original point was that few fatalities occur from healthy adults "Getting electrocuted" by normal mains voltages, and RCDs could be a potential pain if the apparatus was used infrequently.

Thank you for explaining how the centre tap on the US system works. I can see it now, so you just get the 240 by operating the two "hots" and leaving the neutral "floating"

I know we're diverging a little here and apologies for it, but while we are educating each other, I would also say that in this country, Real tv workshops were entirely "Earth Free Zones" , Where the 240 volts came from a 1:1 transformer and no earth wire was allowed. (It is the earth wire which kills you ! - or rather the "Locking" the neutral in this country to ground - We call one of the phase terminals "Live" and the other "neutral")

Also you refer to UK as 230 volts. That is because when we got "Regulated by EU" the electric systems were "Standardised" with theirs at 230 volts - however in order that it was not neccessary to shut down out=r entire system, "They" allowed a +/- 10% on that which means we can still use our historic 240 but "They" cann say we're on 230

Anyhow, thanks for explaing that "Centre - tap ! much appreciated.

Every country using rotating alternators to produce electricity generate pure sine wave
Electricity, each side of the pond, is 3 phases hi voltage in the network.
Then it's transformed down to 230V in UK and 240V is US/CAN single phase.
The main difference is that you use a full phase, and that we split the phase in 2 by choosing to place neutral in the middle of the transformer wiring.
This gives 120V each side of the neutral in opposed phase, and 240V between the 2 hots, but still a single phase.

The stick/throw effect is related to AC/DC circuit breakage phenomenon and human body impedance.
IEC did experiments and published the results that you can find on google I think.