Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

If it plugs in post it here

Moderator: Site Moderator

Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Birrofilo » Wed May 02, 2018 10:41 am

I am in the process of assembling my first still, and I have no experience of what would work and what not.

The still has a 35L nominal kettle, 2" column, around 1,5 m tall.
I have a gas kitchen stove and I must buy a separate electric stove for the still.
I am considering this stove:
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B014JB26RU/?co ... _lig_dp_it

It is an "halogen lamp" electric stove: what actually heats the stove is an infrared lamp. Very fast in coming to temperature, or so they say.
It has separate handles (good for not burning one's hands accidentally), it works with any kind of metal. I suppose 1500W (230V) would be fine for bringing around 23 L of wash to temperature decently fast and I suppose I would use much less power for temperature stabilization.

The problem I have with this stove is that I don't know whether, in case one day I want to apply a PID to it in order to use it with a finer temperature regulation (not just as a still but also, maybe, for the sparge water while brewing, or for any other need such as Yoghurt making) the continuous on and off actions dictated by the PID might damage the halogen lamp and kill the stove.

I don't think I will use a PID with my still but I might certainly use a PID with this stove for other uses, one day.

Question: would this kind of stove be damaged if controlled by a PID continuously switching it on and off?
Birrofilo
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Expat » Wed May 02, 2018 11:49 am

A PID isn't a really useful for this hobby, as stopping and starting the heat would result in surging: no good. You could use the PID in manual mode with a SSR but that reduces it's usefulness to a potentiometer, except more expensive.

As for the range unit, this likely isn't what you need either as, by design, they cycle on and off, which causes the same surging problem. Probably none too good for the lamps if you tried to reduce the voltage to reduce output.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
____________________
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby fizzix » Wed May 02, 2018 11:32 pm

Since I use a modified* hot plate successfully on an 8-gallon still, I found this for your consideration.

*Modified: Wire past the thermostat switch and run the hot plate wide open. Then you can use a power controller to adjust heat output.
Other wise, as-is or with a PID, you're going to get power CYCLING which will not serve you well. Just a suggestion.
User avatar
fizzix
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 2132
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Birrofilo » Thu May 03, 2018 1:49 am

I think I am going for a traditional electric stove.
I put an eye on this: https://www.amazon.it/dp/B00DEGHS0C/?co ... _lig_dp_it

It's 2 kW and comments say it is durable, a quality product (although one might wonder how it is possible to make such a simple object of low quality, it seems it happens often).

I don't understand the metal "mesh" below the cooking plane, I hope it is sturdy, comments say it's good for brewing the usual 23L quantity. It has a bit of difficulty in keeping a furious boiling for beer, but for distilling I don't need furious boiling and the system is closed (beer must be boiled open for good results).

I am ruling out all electronics out of durability considerations.

A PID would be useful, for instance, if I use this stove to keep sparging water at 78°C without overshooting (above that temperature one extracts a lot of tannins and that's not good).

I discovered PIDs are not good to couple with electronic stoves, because some electronic stove don't remember the power at which they were set (so at any power interruption the stove goes to default power, thais a problem is it is not the maximum power) and because some electronic stoves need to be switched on manually after any power interruption.
So a good old plain electric stove with a knob would work much better if coupled to a PID.

The halogen stove, even though it has a know, might use some electronics for intermediate power settings (doing on and off) which makes it less durable especially if stressed with a PID.
Birrofilo
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Expat » Thu May 03, 2018 3:42 am

As Fizzix mentioned, unless you rewire, an electrical stove will cycle on and off, which is no good. You want consistent heat you can control.

If you're going with an electric stove, wire past the thermostat and use a controller, SSR and potentiometer for example. You can dial in the power and the setting will always be the same as it's just a knob.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71855
____________________
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Birrofilo » Thu May 03, 2018 10:36 am

Thanks, I'm going to study this controller thing.
I never had an electric stove.
I thought that an ordinary, old-fashioned stove would just burn, at a certain power set by the knob, without interruption, no more no less than a gas burner would.

But, for what I gather, you are telling me that there always is a thermostat, also in old-style plain electric stoves.

That complicates things more than a little bit, because I have not just to assemble a controller, but also open the stove in order to bypass the thermostat. :crazy:
Birrofilo
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby The Baker » Thu May 03, 2018 5:45 pm

Birrofilo, you may not need a controller;
if you remove the thermostat (which actually cuts in and out and upsets the distilling), you may find that the maximum temperature is not too much for the still to operate happily, so it won't need to be adjusted.

Geoff
The Baker
The Baker
Distiller
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Birrofilo » Sat May 05, 2018 10:03 am

I am not convinced that removing the thermostat is an easy thing. I might have to do some soldering on a new item. If it is just a screwdriver work, I think I am up to the task.

I would like to find a stove without thermostat, do you know any?
Even better, a stove with several heat positions, but no thermostat (just like some heaters, each position activates an additional heating element, and elements do not contain any thermostat, something simple).

For a wash of around 20-25 litres, would a 1500W / 230V give too much heat to the still (CM) for proper control?

I found a stove with a very thick cast iron cooking plane and a lot of thermal inertia. Maybe, considering the thickness of the cooking plane, and the liquid mass in the still, can I hope of a decently uniform heat without having to perform the surgical operation?
Birrofilo
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby The Baker » Sat May 05, 2018 4:34 pm

Birrofilo said, 'I would like to find a stove without thermostat, do you know any?
Even better, a stove with several heat positions, but no thermostat (just like some heaters, each position activates an additional heating element, and elements do not contain any thermostat, something simple)'.

Some tea urns (coffee, hot water, whatever) especially old ones, work like that. So do some portable stoves. They have two elements.
Switch position;
One, (low) the smaller element.
Two, (medium) the larger element.
Three (high) both elements together.

You might be lucky enough to find one in good condition. Heat up on High, run on Medium or Low. Probably no controller needed.

Geoff
The Baker
The Baker
Distiller
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Suitability of an halogen stove with a PID

Postby Birrofilo » Sun May 06, 2018 10:50 am

I understand but I have already a custom-made kettle and I now need a stove to put it onto.
I would like not to use gas because that would force me to work in the balcony, away from the sink, and generally speaking I would like to distill indoors.
I looked everywhere on Amazon hoping to find somebody complaining that their stove had no themostat, but found none.
I think I am going to buy the "thick surface" stove and interpose a metal layer or two between the stove and the kettle.
That will make me lose something in terms of efficiency but would probably even the heat emission, the metal between heaters and mash should act as a buffer and offset the on-off action of the thermostat.

If I see an irregular boiling I will build a controller and modify the stove.
Birrofilo
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi


Return to Related Electric Accessories



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest