Just looking for input please

BillyPrefect · Post by **BillyPrefect** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:47 pm

Pony keg, so 7.75 gallon capacity stainless steel. I've built a 4' column of 2" copper and then built a boka head for it. Not done, no pictures ready at this point...
The question is heating.
I was initially thinking 2 elements running at 110/120 volt typical. Then looking closer at my electrical panel, I realized I actually had an empty old 50amp breaker. It was used for a garage that burned down years before I moved in, but the breaker is in the box and just begging me to make use of it.
I'm just thinking, would a 5500w element, ultra low or low density, end up being too much for a little pony keg ? I'm going to run with an eBay SCR, I haven't planned out the electrical yet at all, am still googling here an everywhere, and trying to stay within a balance that is between my budget and my wifes budget. My budget is of course much larger and far free-er.

Post by **Skipper1953** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:24 pm

If you have the option of doing so, I would suggest changing the 50 amp breaker to a 30 amp breaker. That would probably be more appropriate for the wiring you are going to be using.

You could use a 5500 watt element but a 4500 watt ulwd wavy element would be more than sufficient for a 7.5 gallon boiler. I was quite satisfied with the 4500 watt element I used in my 11 gallon boiler. I don't know anything about the dimensions of a 7.5 gallon keg. Maybe someone else can advise whether a 4500/5500 watt ulwd element will even fit.

BillyPrefect · Post by **BillyPrefect** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:17 am

Same width/circumference as the bigger 15 gallon half barrel, just shorter

Post by **Expat** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:37 am

+1 to what Skipper said.

Also to add, it's not worth your time to consider two elements. So long as you have 220/240v one element will be plenty.

Heat up time on my 15.5g with 5500w is about 40 minutes for a full charge. So either way 4500 or 5500 times are going to be very quick. Your biggest concern would be controlling it properly when you're up to temp; that much power will massively flood a 2" Bok.

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:19 am

Expat wrote:Also to add, it's not worth your time to consider two elements.

If an element blows when you have a still charge of hot liquor, you can carry on, albeit a bit slower, and finish the run without any drama. I put a second element in twenty years ago and highly recommend it.

Post by **Bushman** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:55 am

I am just going to ask the question as I do not know the answer. I have a 4" column on my 15.5 gallon keg and it works great, I am wondering if it might be too big on a pony keg. The reason I say this as Mash Rookie did a lot to further this hobby through a lot of experiments and tests before we lost him to ALS. One of his experiments dealt with a 6" column on a 15.5 gallon keg and his conclusion was it ran to fast.

StillerBoy · Post by **StillerBoy** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:46 am

Bushman wrote: I have a 4" column on my 15.5 gallon keg and it works great, I am wondering if it might be too big on a pony keg.

I believe you may have mis-read his statement.. is will be a 2" with a 4' column of boka style..

Mars

Post by **still_stirrin** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:22 am

BillyPerfect,

I run two 4.5kW elements on 110VAC. The advantage is that when pulling power from two separate circuits in the shed, I don’t need 220VAC or even greater than 15A circuits (no changes required to infrastructure). What that means is that my rig can be transported to about anywhere that has at least 2 free 15A circuits. It makes it “mobile”.

Also, using two elements to heat decreases the watt density in the boiler, thereby significantly reducing the possibility of scorching a wash, especially a wash that hasn’t been thoroughly cleared.

I prefer the “form factor” of the 4.5kW elements because they are a “return bend” design, not the “wavy” design of the 5.5kW elements. They’re easy to insert and remove (for cleaning). The “wavy” designed elements sometime expand making them difficult to extricate from the boiler.

If you have 220VAC available and can provide power up to a 30A breaker, then a single 5.5kW element will give you a quick heat up to production. But you’ll need a control circuit for it that can handle the 30A load at the rated 220VAC source. SSR designs will work, so give them a look.

Again, if your pony keg is fitted with two 2” ferrules, you may be better off dividing the load and heat input into two elements (watt density advantage). And remember, when installing the ferrules, locate one as low as you can in the side just above the lower chine. And locate the 2nd ferrule 2” higher and at 1/4 of the way around the keg’s circumference so the elements make a 90* to each other and won’t interfere with each other.

Happy building.
ss

Post by **Expat** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:23 pm

still_stirrin wrote: I run two 4.5kW elements on 110VAC. The advantage is that when pulling power from two separate circuits in the shed, I don’t need 220VAC or even greater than 15A circuits (no changes required to infrastructure)

SS - Did you mean 1.5KW or perhaps running a 4.5KW 220v element on 120v? I ask because a 4.5kw element would be drawing nearly 41A on a 110v circuit.

Post by **still_stirrin** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:00 pm

Expat wrote:SS - Did you mean 1.5KW or perhaps running a 4.5KW 220v element on 120v? I ask because a 4.5kw element would be drawing nearly 41A on a 110v circuit.

You're mistaken here.

A 4.5kW element would draw: 4500 watts / 220 volts = 20.45 amps.
And the element has: 220 volts / 20.45 amps = 10.756 ohms resistance.

Now, putting that element on a 110 volt line would draw: 110 volts / 10.756 ohms = 10.23 amps.
And it would put out: 110 volts x 10.23 amps = 1125 watts....1/4 of the 220 VAC rating.

But the watt density (watts per square inch or square centimeter of element surface area) would be much less, avoiding the likelihood of scorching, like I said.
ss

Post by **still_stirrin** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:07 pm

And a 5.5kW element on a 220VAC circuit would draw 25 amps, which would give just enough margin for a 30 amp circuit. That's why it is so widely discussed here.

A 5.5kW element on a 110AVC circuit would draw 12.5 amps, putting out 1375 watts of heat...again 1/4 of the rated power at 220VAC. But the element could be run from a standard 15 amp circuit breaker without changing, again with adequate margin of safety for the circuit.
ss

Post by **Expat** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:14 pm

Thanks for clarifying, you hadn't said running a 220 on 110, which is what I speculated in my question.

Also, not wrong. You stated the output was 4500watts on 110v.

I run two 4.5kW elements on 110VAC

4500watts / 110v = 40.909A. Hence my question. Thanks though.

Post by **Bushman** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:48 pm

StillerBoy wrote:
Bushman wrote: I have a 4" column on my 15.5 gallon keg and it works great, I am wondering if it might be too big on a pony keg.
I believe you may have mis-read his statement.. is will be a 2" with a 4' column of boka style..

Mars

I did!

NineInchNails · Post by **NineInchNails** » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:31 pm

I'd go with a ultra low watt density 220V element and a good controller. I like using PID for initial heat-up. Just set the desired temp, it is automatic, stable and reliable. I then switch over to 'variable' on my controller for manual/variable power control using a dial.

You could go with a basic variable controller, but keep an eye on the boiler temp otherwise it can get out of control. You can always dial down the power, but full power is nice for initial heat-up. That's why I love to use PID initially. It can even be set to signal an alarm/buzzer.

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