New Controller

[Oldvine Zin]

]So after a couple years of using an embarrassing (hey I'm a journeyman electrician) just enough to get by controller built with parts laying around it's time to build a correct one.

One of the short cuts I took, think that I mentioned it in another post being a know it all you can get 110 vac from 1 hot and ground in a 220 vac system - all good until your 110 volt device shorts to ground, = 110 volts to anything grounded to your system, quite the surprise when you touch the boiler. Please don't do that.

More pics later

[NZChris]

I have always had a large earth strap clamped to my boiler so that I don't get any surprises.

[Oldvine Zin]

Isolated from your controller should be good. Through a missed wired controller not so much

OVZ

[Oldvine Zin]

Almost got all the parts for my new controller, just waiting for the ground fault circuit breakers to arrive.

Just a simple but safer controller, no fancy "zero's and ones" - straight analog.
One heater control with amp and voltage readout, one 220vac on/off for my cooling pump, and one 110vac on/off for either my cooling fan or mash pump. All three circuits GFIC protected.

OVZ

[StillerBoy]

Oldvine.. are you going to use two potentiometer with your ssr, while you are at it..

Two potentiometer give you better control, one 47K and another 470K, so that you are about to fine tune the heat input..

Mars

[Oldvine Zin]

Oldvine.. are you going to use two potentiometer with your ssr, while you are at it..

Two potentiometer give you better control, one 47K and another 470K, so that you are about to fine tune the heat input..

Mars

Wasn't going to but since you mentioned it it sounds like a good idea
One more part to order

OVZ

[StillerBoy]

Wasn't going to but since you mentioned it it sounds like a good idea

I'm sure you will not regret having install two pots.. it is so nice to have the ability to fine tune the power..

Mars

Here's mine..

[Big Stogie]

Looks good Mars! I like the extra adjustment for heat. Old one looking forward to seeing he finished product

[Yummyrum]

@ stillerboy , your V meter reads 240 v and your A meter is 13amps that calculates to about 3120watts but your power says 2073 watts . Wondering which one you trust ?

[StillerBoy]

Sharp eyes Yummyrum..

Yah those meters have a discrepancy issue between the amp and kilowatt reading.. I've tested three of these meters, all have the same issue, but all read the same, so I use the amp reading mainly for my settings.. and have done a test using an amp meter to compare the different, when I first started using these meters, and came to the realization that to calculate the difference was really not an issue, as long as I used the amps and tune my operation based on the amps..

Thanks BS for the compliment.. dual pots does make it easier to fine tune.. the second pot full range is only 3 amps, so it is easy to play with quarter / half amp settings..

Mars

[sambedded]

Sharp eyes Yummyrum..

Yah those meters have a discrepancy issue between the amp and kilowatt reading..

I've tested this and couple similar meters. ll off them definitely not a high precision devises however they are accurate enough.
The discrepancy you observing is due to meter connection. You connected voltage sensing wires "before" SSR . So it always shows 240B or near it. While voltage on heating element is actually decreasing when you set dial below 100%. However wattage value displayed by that meter is acculturate enough, So if you take TrueRMS voltmeter and measure voltage directly on heating element and multiply by your amp reading you should get value pretty close to wattage you see on display.

[Expat]

Looking great, very clean and well built!

Are you running k-type thermal probes for the temps?

I really like the total energy summary on your one panel. Definitely a nice to have item if you like data

[StillerBoy]

The discrepancy you observing is due to meter connection. You connected voltage sensing wires "before" SSR .

The meter is connected to the flow through wire, that is the transformer.. should it be connected at a different location or wire..

Are you running k-type thermal probes for the temps?

I don't know what a k-type thermal probes means, but what I have are meters that use DS18B20 probes, which I shorten to the length I want, cut them and attached them with 3 wires mic plugs..

These meters work quite well for what I do.. one at the bottom of column value, one at the top of column value (reflux setup), and one for the water temp (bottom one).. at a glace, I can see what is happening, or where I'm at in the run, etc..

Mars

Probe setup..

[StillerBoy]

Sorry Oldvine.. we are somewhat hijacking your thread.. but on the other, providing you with some addition input on your new controller built..

Mars

[Oldvine Zin]

Sorry Oldvine.. we are somewhat hijacking your thread.. but on the other, providing you with some addition input on your new controller built..

Mars

Its all good we can never have too many inputs and suggestions, it's all about learning. I try to learn something new here every day.

So getting back to the two control pots I assume that you wired them up in series to give the fine tuning?

And oh I just received the Din mount GFI'S today

OVZ

[Yummyrum]

Just a simple but safer controller, no fancy "zero's and ones" - straight analog.
OVZ

OVZ , Was wondering why you chose not to use an a analog meter . Suspect there are a few ones and zeros in that digital one you got there
Analog meters are good at averaging the chopped up waveform from a phase controller and they don’t blow up if you connect the voltmeter section to the element like some digital ones do . I don’t see the point in getting a digital meter that has to have the voltage section measuring the input voltage just so it won’t blow up . Might as well just have an ammeter I guess . But maybe the one you got will survive just fine with the voltage meter connected across the element .

( Incidentally ... if you are not aware , there a quite a few posts on this subject . Digital meters get their power to operate from the voltage measurement section . When connected to a chopped up waveform from a phase controller and in particular when its turned down low , Digital meters smoke up . This is why common advise is to connect the voltage measurement section before thr controller .... rendering its use questionable )

Regarding the two pots , yes connect in series as a course and fine adjustment . ... either way round . It doesn’t matter which one goes where in the series curcuit .

[Big Stogie]

While it’s certainly not as sexy or high tech as digital stuff a simple analog volt meter is easy to hook up and dead reliable. In the end it’s just a number to give you a reference to run from. I can easily calculate watts or whatever from that. My rig likes to run beteeen 95 and 105 volts most of the time once it stabilizes. 220 volt, 5500 watt element. It’s also really east to see the needle swing when I adjust it. I’m a gadget guy but this works for me

[still_stirrin]

I gotta’ agree with Yummyrum and Big Stogie here (FWIW).

My controler has both, an analog volt meter and an analog ammeter but the ammeter is what I use to adjust the power. The current swings proportionally to the power and the ammeter can easily display the changes. It is easy to see the needle swing between 5 amps and 15 amps, which is where my 4.5kW/220VAC element runs on 110VAC circuits. The 20 amp gage does not use an external toroidal transformer, it is wired “inline” with the output circuit. So it reacts very quickly to power adjustments.

The volt meter isn’t much benefit really because it swings between 110VAC and 95VAC with the same power adjustment. Because of the way a zero crossing triac switches on and off, the voltage doesn’t drop much before the current flow is closed. Also, analog meters do display a RMS voltage, not peak instantaneous voltage.

Bottomline, once you’ve learned the performance of your boiler, the power (wattage) consumed is not really a necessary number to adjust the boil rate. You can easily get your measurement que from the current alone. And it will be a more “dynamic” display for your feedback. Instead of watts....just note the amps. Quickly you’ll know when and where to adjust the current to your heat element throughout the run to get the production rate desired at the spout.
ss

[StillerBoy]

In the end it’s just a number to give you a reference to run from.

I'm in agreement there..

I like the set up I have, for many reasons, but the main one is that at a glance, I can determine what is happening in the boiler, and what the output is, without having to stand over the still and do all kinds of measuring..

When refluxing, the temp at the bottom of the column, the temp at the top, and the water temp allows me to dial it in the same every time a run is done..

But that's just me, I like to see what the action is doing..

Mars

[Oldvine Zin]

OVZ , Was wondering why you chose not to use an a analog meter . Suspect there are a few ones and zeros in that digital one you got there
Analog meters are good at averaging the chopped up waveform from a phase controller and they don’t blow up if you connect the voltmeter section to the element like some digital ones do . I don’t see the point in getting a digital meter that has to have the voltage section measuring the input voltage just so it won’t blow up . Might as well just have an ammeter I guess . But maybe the one you got will survive just fine with the voltage meter connected across the element .

OK you and everyone else has shamed me into going all analog Ordered two meters today and returned the digital one.

OVZ

[Oldvine Zin]

First meter showed up today, didn't catch it when I placed the order but it's rated for 50 Hz - should be accurate enough on 60 Hz

OVZ

[NZChris]

My Chinese analogue Ammeter is not trustworthy when used with an SCR controller. When testing it without the interference of the SCR, it appears to be accurate.

[Oldvine Zin]

Still waiting on parts - a few set backs on some of the parts I ordered not being correct


OVZ

[bolek]

About digital meter... Cheap Chinese power meter can work only with clear sinus. They show nonsens when you connect device with phase regulation, in simple ittoo less points at sinus but calculate it as sinus.
Really good meter will be expensive. I think that the best option i to get power meter who is use by by power plants(?). This device must be accurate from it's nature, also have good connector so is safly. Meter withdrawn from use is very cheap, but you must looks for model who show also actual data (power, current). Some device show it but in hidden options.

[pretender]

Almost got all the parts for my new controller, just waiting for the ground fault circuit breakers to arrive.

controllerbuild1.JPG

Just a simple but safer controller, no fancy "zero's and ones" - straight analog.
One heater control with amp and voltage readout, one 220vac on/off for my cooling pump, and one 110vac on/off for either my cooling fan or mash pump. All three circuits GFIC protected.

OVZ

What are your plugins called? under what name to look for them on AliExpress?

[sambedded]

About digital meter... Cheap Chinese power meter can work only with clear sinus. They show nonsens when you connect device with phase regulation, in simple ittoo less points at sinus but calculate it as sinus.
Really good meter will be expensive. I think that the best option i to get power meter who is use by by power plants(?). This device must be accurate from it's nature, also have good connector so is safly. Meter withdrawn from use is very cheap, but you must looks for model who show also actual data (power, current). Some device show it but in hidden options.

Regular analog amp and volt meters show incorrect value on non-sinus waveforms as well. Actually many of "cheap chinese power meter" surprisingly accurat even on chopped sinus after phase angle controller. For example this one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PZEM-004-A ... 3229990150" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Oldvine Zin]

What are your plugins called? under what name to look for them on AliExpress?

Not sure to what you are calling plugins?

Did a little bit of work on the controller today:

Drilled some holes - and
started filling them


OVZ

[pretender]

Oldvine Zin
Power plug and socket.

[Oldvine Zin]

Oldvine Zin
Power plug and socket.

The power in is a nema 14 50
Element power is a nema L 6 30
220 volt pump is a nema L 6 20
Aux pump is a nema L 5 20

OVZ

[Oldvine Zin]

So one of my setbacks was that the cool din mount gfic circuit breakers I bought were listed as two pole 240 vac but in reality are one pole and a hot = 1 hot and 1 neutral and the only other breakers that I could find were marine grade and lots of bucks.Scrapped the idea of having separate gfic breakers in the panel went with just a 50 amp on the main

OVZ