Do you really need a controller?

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bunny
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Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

I can't answer that for you as your circumstances and desires are probably different from mine.
My circumstances at this time are such that I have only one 120v 20A circuit and that's not likely to change.
I have built two controllers that seem to work fine however the built in meters are wildly inaccurate due to the non sinusoidal wave.
They can be dialed in to be repeatable from run to run, but so what, I can't tell you with any certainty how much power I'm using.
I could tell you my collection rate and maybe that's enough to paint a clear picture, but I don't need a controller to do that.

I have pondered the big coffee urns (T-500 and the like) that do not have controllers or meters.
To me it seems all that really matters is vapor speed suitable for column diameter and condenser ability.

If that's truly all that really matters then I certainly do not need a controller(or two).

Two years spent down my personal little hole has given me an unusual perspective.
My goal to make the best neutral I can with the least amount of work has left me with these conclusions:

For me it's necessary to have two separate setups. One to strip, and one to spirit run.
My stripper is a simple pot built on a 5g korney keg with a 1500w element plugged directly into the wall.
My neutral/spirit machine is a 7.75g short pony keg using a 5500w element on 120v plugged directly into the wall with a 2" x 60" spp filled column with a 45 degree LM head.
My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.

I have my own wash recipe that for me is extremely reproducible.

So for me, I can make a very fine neutral without a controller.
I may not be running at the fastest take off rate, but speed was never a part of my goal.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by NZChris »

I sometimes connect my two elements in series and do the entire run with no controller.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by Demy »

I think it's a personal preference with many variables, including equipment. Personally a controller gives you flexibility that you can't have with just elements. I use my controller with various configurations (including a small batch hotplate) so it's an important element in my humble setup.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

As above, they are extremely useful to many people, and for many and varied purposes.
If you are one of those few lucky people who have an element who's power is matched perfectly to your still then you probably don't need one.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by Kareltje »

For one of my stills I have two elements: one of 2.3 kW and one of 3.2 kW. So without controller I have 4 powers (parallel, the second one, the first one and series), which is quite enough for that still.
And then of course I can vary the insulation of the boiler and helmet.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by LD50 »

I tend to use dropper capacitors (with bleed resistors for safety) once I know roughly how much power is required of a given element for a given purpose. Power controllers are nice and shiney but I have a bunch of various size 450volt motor run capacitors lying around, so...

Example: 900W element in a 4 litre air-cooled water distiller. Element resitance when cold is about 61 Ohms and it's pretty much all resistive (well, it's slightly inductive but nothing to worry about at 50Hz)
IMPORTANT - the cooling fan is always run at mains line voltage to make sure it runs full speed all the time regardless of element power selected.
The fan can be fed full mains voltage easily on a seperate cable because it has a seperate "flying" lead with a IEC line socket on it (as used on computer PSUs) and the element has it's own IEC inlet on the base.

CAUTION: our mains supply at this site is about 245V to 250V AC at 50Hz - US hobbyists take special note because the frequency matters for calculating the reactance.
THIS IS ADVANCED - if you can't calculate capacitive reactance properly or calculate an appropriate bleed resistor for safety and source suitably rated components don't even try this - this post is aimed at experienced electricians or possibly appliance repair technicians who may have the parts lying around


900W on this simple water distiller is waaaay to hot for even a stripping run (it dramatically overpowers the condenser and product runs out so hot it could burn your finger (!), so I use a 15uF dropper cap for a fast strip run and 5uF for a spirit run in series with the element.
A final run (yep, a 3rd distillation) is done with a 2uF dropper cap for a very, very slow product collection rate.

A 3 position + off "rotary fan speed switch" (cheap 10A rotary switch from China designed to use on things like fans and heaters) selects the 3 dropper caps.
I also use a 30 minute rotary clockwork mains switch timer in case I get distracted - I don't want it to boil dry. I find it handy so I can browse the net sitting next to it while I do a run. You could use a kitchen timer as a reminder but after a close call one day watching por^W training videos wanted something to cut the still off if I lose track of time.

This water distiller is basically a very poor pot still but can be made to work OK with 3 runs, wide head and tails cuts and patience to run it very slow.

I find approaching the foreshots on the coolest setting (2uF in series) gives better separation a stripping run after an initial heat-up on the hottest 15uF setting, then I speed it up again by switching to the 15uF cap until I smell bad tails.


the caution again, because this is a hobby forum and this is particularly advanced post that not everyone will fully understand...
CAUTION: our mains supply here is about 245Vto 250V AC at 50Hz - US hobbyists take special note because the frequency matters for calculating the reactance.
THIS IS ADVANCED - if you can't calculate capacitive reactance properly or calculate an appropriate bleed resistor for safety and source suitably rated components don't even try this - this post is aimed at experienced electricians or possibly appliance repair technicians who may have the parts lying around
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

LD50 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:32 pm I tend to use dropper capacitors (with bleed resistors for safety) once I know roughly how much power is required of a given element for a given purpose. Power controllers are nice and shiney but I have a bunch of various size 450volt motor run capacitors lying around, so...

Example: 900W element in a 4 litre air-cooled water distiller. Element resitance when cold is about 61 Ohms and it's pretty much all resistive (well, it's slightly inductive but nothing to worry about at 50Hz)
IMPORTANT - the cooling fan is always run at mains line voltage to make sure it runs full speed all the time regardless of element power selected.
The fan can be fed full mains voltage easily on a seperate cable because it has a seperate "flying" lead with a IEC line socket on it (as used on computer PSUs) and the element has it's own IEC inlet on the base.

CAUTION: our mains supply at this site is about 245V to 250V AC at 50Hz - US hobbyists take special note because the frequency matters for calculating the reactance.
THIS IS ADVANCED - if you can't calculate capacitive reactance properly or calculate an appropriate bleed resistor for safety and source suitably rated components don't even try this - this post is aimed at experienced electricians or possibly appliance repair technicians who may have the parts lying around


900W on this simple water distiller is waaaay to hot for even a stripping run (it dramatically overpowers the condenser and product runs out so hot it could burn your finger (!), so I use a 15uF dropper cap for a fast strip run and 5uF for a spirit run in series with the element.
A final run (yep, a 3rd distillation) is done with a 2uF dropper cap for a very, very slow product collection rate.

A 3 position + off "rotary fan speed switch" (cheap 10A rotary switch from China designed to use on things like fans and heaters) selects the 3 dropper caps.
I also use a 30 minute rotary clockwork mains switch timer in case I get distracted - I don't want it to boil dry. I find it handy so I can browse the net sitting next to it while I do a run. You could use a kitchen timer as a reminder but after a close call one day watching por^W training videos wanted something to cut the still off if I lose track of time.

This water distiller is basically a very poor pot still but can be made to work OK with 3 runs, wide head and tails cuts and patience to run it very slow.

I find approaching the foreshots on the coolest setting (2uF in series) gives better separation a stripping run after an initial heat-up on the hottest 15uF setting, then I speed it up again by switching to the 15uF cap until I smell bad tails.


the caution again, because this is a hobby forum and this is particularly advanced post that not everyone will fully understand...
CAUTION: our mains supply here is about 245Vto 250V AC at 50Hz - US hobbyists take special note because the frequency matters for calculating the reactance.
THIS IS ADVANCED - if you can't calculate capacitive reactance properly or calculate an appropriate bleed resistor for safety and source suitably rated components don't even try this - this post is aimed at experienced electricians or possibly appliance repair technicians who may have the parts lying around
some pictures would be interesting...
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:53 pm As above, they are extremely useful to many people, and for many and varied purposes.
If you are one of those few lucky people who have an element who's power is matched perfectly to your still then you probably don't need one.
I don't consider myself lucky. I did my homework and trials and then put together two small, compact, relatively lightweight tools to produce neutral spirits.
If I were to decide to produce something else I can always use my controllers.

BTW I purchase and tested a wide range of 240v elements from Zorro.
At 120v I can screw in individual elements to get 187w, 250w, 375w, 500w, 750w, 1000w, 1200w, 1375w, and a plain 120v 1500w.
This is the practical comfortable, limit of wattage for my circuit.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by 6 Row Joe »

You need a controller if you have more power input that your still can handle. Hypothetically, start out with say a 1500 watt element at 100% and dial it back to 50% to control the run with the proper condenser output. You could also use a 750 watt element and run it without a controller. It would take much longer to get to production temp but it would idle along nicely once it got there. I have a Harbor Freight controller that is used to control the speed of a wood router. Just a cord, a outlet, and a box with a dial. Nothing fancy, just a controller.
I don't drink alcohol, I drink distilled spirits.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:49 am I did my homework and trials and then put together two small, compact, relatively lightweight tools to produce neutral spirits.
Very interesting.. Could you elaborate what " two small compact relatively lightweight tools" imply/mean..
bunny wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:49 am At 120v I can screw in individual elements to get 187w, 250w, 375w, 500w, 750w, 1000w, 1200w, 1375w, and a plain 120v 1500w.
The use of nine elements to manage the wattage one wants during a run.. have you considered the cost of those elements vera the cost of a controller, and not discounting the replacement cost of having spares on hand.. is that what you call " did my homework"..

Mars
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by Yummyrum »

I live rural and my next door neighbour has a massive grid feed solar system .
In Summer in particular , the supply voltage goes up and down like a whores drawers.

Normally after equalisation , I set my power and off it goes , But on the bad days , I’m having to tweak it .
On days like this , I ponder about making a controller that self adjusts depending on the available supply voltage .
It would use burstfire like the Auberins DRPR1 but it would sample the voltage during a conduction cycle and depending on that , increase or decrease the number of cycles to maintain a chosen power.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:54 am
bunny wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:49 am I did my homework and trials and then put together two small, compact, relatively lightweight tools to produce neutral spirits.
Very interesting.. Could you elaborate what " two small compact relatively lightweight tools" imply/mean..
bunny wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:49 am At 120v I can screw in individual elements to get 187w, 250w, 375w, 500w, 750w, 1000w, 1200w, 1375w, and a plain 120v 1500w.
The use of nine elements to manage the wattage one wants during a run.. have you considered the cost of those elements vera the cost of a controller, and not discounting the replacement cost of having spares on hand.. is that what you call " did my homework"..

Mars

Tool number one: The stripper:
P1050312.JPG
11.4lbs empty as seen in photo. Even an old fart such as I can easily dump the remains especially with those nice rubber handles.

Tool number two: The refluxer:
P1050322.JPG
24lb pony boiler, 10.8 lbs of column and head, and 11.0lbs of spp.


My homework was spending almost two years experimenting with 1" pipe and making dozens of CM, LM, and VM stills. This resulted in the two tools you see above. After I finished experimenting I concluded all I really needed was one 1500w x 120v element in the stripper and one 5500w x 240(at 120v) for the refluxer. The other elements that I have were used as testers along the way and will remain in the tool box until further notice.

I have yet to burn out an element.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am My neutral/spirit machine is a 7.75g short pony keg using a 5500w element on 120v plugged directly into the wall with a 2" x 60" spp filled column with a 45 degree LM head.
My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.
That's a given at 1575w, which is way under power to be able to flood with the length and packing used, but slow.. but it's kind of ok setup for small batches..

The 45 degree condenser LM is an old design brought fore by Manu in the 2010 period, and really never took off but help other design such as the CCVM evolve from it..

What is the style/design of the take off pool, is there a distillate centering guide, and what type/size of valve do you use to manage the take off rate..

Mars
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

StillerBoy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:55 pm
bunny wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am My neutral/spirit machine is a 7.75g short pony keg using a 5500w element on 120v plugged directly into the wall with a 2" x 60" spp filled column with a 45 degree LM head.
My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.
That's a given at 1575w, which is way under power to be able to flood with the length and packing used, but slow.. but it's kind of ok setup for small batches..

The 45 degree condenser LM is an old design brought fore by Manu in the 2010 period, and really never took off but help other design such as the CCVM evolve from it..

What is the style/design of the take off pool, is there a distillate centering guide, and what type/size of valve do you use to manage the take off rate..

Mars
Actually 5500/4 =1375w put into a 1.87ID column works out to 22.91 ips.
You are correct when you say it won't flood at this power. THAT IS THE PLAN. Why would I want to flood the column? You are welcome to flood your's as often and whenever you like.
This amount of power pushes 5,500mls of reflux into the condenser/hour. The take off rate can be set by installing the pilot jet that passes the desired amount of product per hour. Somewhat like the alco engine.
Manu's LM head relies on CC method for take off. Hookline has pictures of the 45* LM head before manu.
The "take off pool" holds maybe 5mls but is being flushed by 85mls/minute if I take off 500mls/hour.
Mine does not have a return centering guide as I can not detect any difference with or without one in this size column.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.
bunny wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:55 pm You are correct when you say it won't flood at this power. THAT IS THE PLAN. Why would I want to flood the column? You are welcome to flood your's as often and whenever you like.
You stated so by bring it up, I just elaborated on it..

And by the way, I never flood my unit, just so you and the other are aware of such.. they is a vast different between flooding of a column, and operating one in a semi flooded state atop of the packing..
bunny wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:55 pm The take off rate can be set by installing the pilot jet that passes the desired amount of product per hour. Somewhat like the alco engine.
If it works for you, all the best, but how does one change the varies take off rates during a run..

Mars
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

StillerBoy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:04 pm
bunny wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.
bunny wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:55 pm You are correct when you say it won't flood at this power. THAT IS THE PLAN. Why would I want to flood the column? You are welcome to flood your's as often and whenever you like.
You stated so by bring it up, I just elaborated on it..

And by the way, I never flood my unit, just so you and the other are aware of such.. they is a vast different between flooding of a column, and operating one in a semi flooded state atop of the packing..
bunny wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:55 pm The take off rate can be set by installing the pilot jet that passes the desired amount of product per hour. Somewhat like the alco engine.
If it works for you, all the best, but how does one change the varies take off rates during a run..

Mars
You simply close the ball valve, unscrew the current jet and replace it with the one of your choice and reopen the ball valve.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by shadylane »

Here's an option for folks that are limited to 120V and getting 1375w out of a 5500w heater.
With 120v in the variac can give 0 - 140v out. The extra voltage will help the heater make 1600w
$100 and you have a ready made controller that is rated to handle 2000w.
71-1IPo5-cL._SX466_.jpg
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by LWTCS »

bunny wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am I can't answer that for you as your circumstances and desires are probably different from mine.
My circumstances at this time are such that I have only one 120v 20A circuit and that's not likely to change.
I have built two controllers that seem to work fine however the built in meters are wildly inaccurate due to the non sinusoidal wave.
They can be dialed in to be repeatable from run to run, but so what, I can't tell you with any certainty how much power I'm using.
I could tell you my collection rate and maybe that's enough to paint a clear picture, but I don't need a controller to do that.

I have pondered the big coffee urns (T-500 and the like) that do not have controllers or meters.
To me it seems all that really matters is vapor speed suitable for column diameter and condenser ability.

If that's truly all that really matters then I certainly do not need a controller(or two).

Two years spent down my personal little hole has given me an unusual perspective.
My goal to make the best neutral I can with the least amount of work has left me with these conclusions:

For me it's necessary to have two separate setups. One to strip, and one to spirit run.
My stripper is a simple pot built on a 5g korney keg with a 1500w element plugged directly into the wall.
My neutral/spirit machine is a 7.75g short pony keg using a 5500w element on 120v plugged directly into the wall with a 2" x 60" spp filled column with a 45 degree LM head.
My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.

I have my own wash recipe that for me is extremely reproducible.

So for me, I can make a very fine neutral without a controller.
I may not be running at the fastest take off rate, but speed was never a part of my goal.
Confusing post here. Particularly when you say that you have built two controllers but cannot tell with any certainty how much power is being used.

So you don't have a basic multi meter or amp probe?

May I ask , with what testing tool did you conclude how to measure your vapor speed?
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by 30xs »

With a reflux still and an element that is close to optimum, or at least not too large to cause flooding, you could get away without a controller.

Try running it as a pot still one time and you’ll appreciate the ability to dial in the takeoff rate to keep from pushing tails too hard.

I’d say controllers are needed more in some applications more than they are needed in others. Using 5500 watt elements for a fast primary heat up and being able to dial down to stabilize the column, or adjusting to a pencil lead stream without using reflux, the controller becomes more valuable.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:00 am
bunny wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am I can't answer that for you as your circumstances and desires are probably different from mine.
My circumstances at this time are such that I have only one 120v 20A circuit and that's not likely to change.
I have built two controllers that seem to work fine however the built in meters are wildly inaccurate due to the non sinusoidal wave.
They can be dialed in to be repeatable from run to run, but so what, I can't tell you with any certainty how much power I'm using.
I could tell you my collection rate and maybe that's enough to paint a clear picture, but I don't need a controller to do that.

I have pondered the big coffee urns (T-500 and the like) that do not have controllers or meters.
To me it seems all that really matters is vapor speed suitable for column diameter and condenser ability.

If that's truly all that really matters then I certainly do not need a controller(or two).

Two years spent down my personal little hole has given me an unusual perspective.
My goal to make the best neutral I can with the least amount of work has left me with these conclusions:

For me it's necessary to have two separate setups. One to strip, and one to spirit run.
My stripper is a simple pot built on a 5g korney keg with a 1500w element plugged directly into the wall.
My neutral/spirit machine is a 7.75g short pony keg using a 5500w element on 120v plugged directly into the wall with a 2" x 60" spp filled column with a 45 degree LM head.
My vapor speed in the ss column is very close to 23ips and never floods even at 100% reflux.

I have my own wash recipe that for me is extremely reproducible.

So for me, I can make a very fine neutral without a controller.
I may not be running at the fastest take off rate, but speed was never a part of my goal.
Confusing post here. Particularly when you say that you have built two controllers but cannot tell with any certainty how much power is being used.

So you don't have a basic multi meter or amp probe?

May I ask , with what testing tool did you conclude how to measure your vapor speed?
Here are the two controllers I built that work well with the exception of their inability to tell the truth about voltage and amperage. The meters are designed for sinusoidal waves and the controller puts out non-sinusoidal waves. The output is repeatable but nonsensical in it's readout.
P1050325.JPG
There was a time when I couldn't figure out why my column was flooding. That's when I learned about TrueRMS meters. The data from my meter was telling me my vapor speed should be about 21-23ips but after using a TrueRMS meter I discovered my vapor speed was actually 32ips and no wonder it flooded.
P1050332.JPG
P1050326.JPG
You can see I have a TrueRMS clamp meter. And I have antique Amprobe ammeter and VOM however they were designed for sinusoidal waves and therefore give me the same gibberish as the meters on the controllers.
P1050327.JPG
I use the HD Calculator. If there is a better or easier way please let me know.
30xs wrote: With a reflux still and an element that is close to optimum, or at least not too large to cause flooding, you could get away without a controller.

Try running it as a pot still one time and you’ll appreciate the ability to dial in the takeoff rate to keep from pushing tails too hard.

I’d say controllers are needed more in some applications more than they are needed in others. Using 5500 watt elements for a fast primary heat up and being able to dial down to stabilize the column, or adjusting to a pencil lead stream without using reflux, the controller becomes more valuable.
My very first statement said I don't know what YOU NEED. I'm sure YOU WANT a controller but the question is DO YOU NEED ONE? I'm sure most could benefit from one especially those who are all over the place on their different washes/mashes and desired end products.
I don't believe I'm "getting away without a controller", rather after two years experimenting I have concluded what I need to achieve my goals without a controller. Yes I have two controllers that now have become tools for future experimenting. If you were just starting out a couple of good questions about column ID, vapor speed, and element wattage could possibly save you some grief.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am There was a time when I couldn't figure out why my column was flooding. That's when I learned about TrueRMS meters. The data from my meter was telling me my vapor speed should be about 21-23ips but after using a TrueRMS meter I discovered my vapor speed was actually 32ips and no wonder it flooded.
Are you sure of the fact that the column was flooding, while using the controllers you built ? ? hundreds of similar controller have been built, and I'm not aware of anyone ever stating such, unless the controller wasn't build properly..

Or could be that the reflux condenser wasn't able to handle the vapors pushed at it ? ? improper sized reflux condenser, inadequate water flow setup, or water that is to warm to start with, are the prime cause of RC being over powered..

Column flooding (liquid over flowing the top of the column and over powering the RC) is cause by the returning distillate being restricted.. so what the setup holding the SPP..

In your case, using a 2" x 60" column, packed with SPP, and only using 1375w max of power, there is no way with such a low wattage, should the column have experienced flooding.. my setup which is only 2 x 35", packed with small lava rocks, will not even cause the top of the packing to semi flood at 1800w, and to get a semi flooded state, I have to use at least 1950w, which is considerably more in power usage..

As I've stated before, there is a vast different between flooding of a column, and operating one in a semi flooded state atop of the packing.

Mars
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:12 pm
bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am There was a time when I couldn't figure out why my column was flooding. That's when I learned about TrueRMS meters. The data from my meter was telling me my vapor speed should be about 21-23ips but after using a TrueRMS meter I discovered my vapor speed was actually 32ips and no wonder it flooded.
Are you sure of the fact that the column was flooding, while using the controllers you built ? ? hundreds of similar controller have been built, and I'm not aware of anyone ever stating such, unless the controller wasn't build properly..

Or could be that the reflux condenser wasn't able to handle the vapors pushed at it ? ? improper sized reflux condenser, inadequate water flow setup, or water that is to warm to start with, are the prime cause of RC being over powered..

Column flooding (liquid over flowing the top of the column and over powering the RC) is cause by the returning distillate being restricted.. so what the setup holding the SPP..

In your case, using a 2" x 60" column, packed with SPP, and only using 1375w max of power, there is no way with such a low wattage, should the column have experienced flooding.. my setup which is only 2 x 35", packed with small lava rocks, will not even cause the top of the packing to semi flood at 1800w, and to get a semi flooded state, I have to use at least 1950w, which is considerably more in power usage..

As I've stated before, there is a vast different between flooding of a column, and operating one in a semi flooded state atop of the packing.

Mars
It's too bad you haven't followed my past experiments. If you had you would have known all my testing was with 1" columns that prefer much lower wattage than the 2" column I'm using today. Even I know if you have a half pint of hot alcohol shoot out the top of your condenser you have reached a flooded condition.

I sure don't know everything, but I know inside out my experiments from the past two years. All your speculation above is based on not knowing my past and your present assumptions.

Please feel free to discuss TrueRMS meters and Vapor Speed.

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=84760&p=7683899#p7683485
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shadylane
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by shadylane »

A variacs output is a sinusoidal wave form, so expensive RMS meters aren't needed.
Even a cheap digital volt, amp and watt meter will work. :ewink:

Maybe something like this so there's no need for any wiring.
614YNf7hdML._AC_SL1500_.jpg
.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by shadylane »

bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am
I use the HD Calculator. If there is a better or easier way please let me know.
I figure the calculator is good for sizing the column to power.
But one problem I see with the HD Calculator, is it doesn't take into account the packing.
Most likely the true vapor speed is much higher due to the packing.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by Yummyrum »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:46 am
bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am
I use the HD Calculator. If there is a better or easier way please let me know.
I figure the calculator is good for sizing the column to power.
But one problem I see with the HD Calculator, is it doesn't take into account the packing.
Most likely the true vapor speed is much higher due to the packing.
I think you raise a good point there Shady . The more restrictive the packing , the higher the velocity or vapour speed through it .

I can’t say I have ever used vapour speed numbers as anything useful . I get the concept of them , but could never seem to factor it into anything real .

I’m sure I heard of a method once to measure Vapour speed where puffs of dye ( must have been a coloured gas ) were injected in bottom of column and detected at top .
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:45 am Here's an option for folks that are limited to 120V and getting 1375w out of a 5500w heater.
With 120v in the variac can give 0 - 140v out. The extra voltage will help the heater make 1600w
$100 and you have a ready made controller that is rated to handle 2000w.
71-1IPo5-cL._SX466_.jpg
Shady, I didn't overlook this. Since I don't have one I had to think about it for a while.
If you wanted to promote the use of a variac over the use of a very cheap controller I feel you need to get out in front of the newbies before they build that flawed controller. Perhaps you could wade through the various variacs and recommend one or two. I probably would have listened to this when I first began if it was explained in print by a respected member such as yourself.

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:57 am A variacs output is a sinusoidal wave form, so expensive RMS meters aren't needed.
Even a cheap digital volt, amp and watt meter will work. :ewink:

Maybe something like this so there's no need for any wiring.
614YNf7hdML._AC_SL1500_.jpg
.
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:46 am
bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am
I use the HD Calculator. If there is a better or easier way please let me know.
I figure the calculator is good for sizing the column to power.
But one problem I see with the HD Calculator, is it doesn't take into account the packing.
Most likely the true vapor speed is much higher due to the packing.
I have a spirit run scheduled for tomorrow. I will start with a 60" column with no packing at 1375w. Measure the amount of total reflux. Then fill the 60" column with spp at 1375w and re-measure the total reflux. I'll let you know how it goes.
Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:43 am
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:46 am
bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am
I use the HD Calculator. If there is a better or easier way please let me know.
I figure the calculator is good for sizing the column to power.
But one problem I see with the HD Calculator, is it doesn't take into account the packing.
Most likely the true vapor speed is much higher due to the packing.
I think you raise a good point there Shady . The more restrictive the packing , the higher the velocity or vapour speed through it .

I can’t say I have ever used vapour speed numbers as anything useful . I get the concept of them , but could never seem to factor it into anything real .

I’m sure I heard of a method once to measure Vapour speed where puffs of dye ( must have been a coloured gas ) were injected in bottom of column and detected at top .


Yummyrum....As a Global Moderator could you please send out a membership wide PM to seek out who developed the Vapor Speed Calculator or any one who actually knows what this is all about. It's not likely those persons would just stumble on this thread and not say anything, is it?
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by Yummyrum »

Rad14701 wrote those Vapour-speed calculators .

A clever man but a poor bedside manner means he is no longer here . So you won’t get a response from him .
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by bunny »

My spirit run today did not provide any useful information.
Without any packing my reflux temp with 1375w was 176f, and take off 65mls/m = 3.9l of condensed vapors/hr.
With packing using 1375w reflux temp 173f, take off was 94mls/m = 5.64l of condensed vapors/hr.
This left me scratching my head.
I probably should have tried this with plain water instead of the 40% charge.
Next time....
Last edited by bunny on Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:30 pm Even I know if you have a half pint of hot alcohol shoot out the top of your condenser you have reached a flooded condition.
Again that is statement based on not understanding what took place.. what you experience was not a flooding but mismanagement of power control..

Liquid distillate shooting out the top is cause by way to much power being used and the inability of the reflux condenser to knock then down.. about your 1" experiments, on what your picture show of your 1" 45 degree RC build, that is exactly what happen.. flooding does not shoot out, the distillate will run over the top and down the column..

And as to my present assumptions, they are on the mark.. and as to vapor speed, it's a non issue as vapor speed is best control by the amount power used and the reflux condenser ability to knock them down.. when a RC is over power, the knock down ability is reached.. much simple than trying to determine the vapor speed as there are other things that affect it..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
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Re: Do you really need a controller?

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:30 pm Without any packing my reflux temp with 1375w was 176f, and take off 65mls/m = 3.9l of condensed vapors.
With packing using 1375w reflux temp 173f, take off was 94mls/m = 5.64l of condensed vapors.
This left me scratching my head.
There really nothing to not understand.. the packing showed that it does have an effect.. and trying with water will also give a different result, and furthermore, we are not in this hobby to distill water as it's much cheap to buy it..

So trying to determine vapors in a packed reflux column is really a waste of time and best done by understand power usage and reflux condenser's ability to knock down.. and least we forget, the water flow rate and water temp is also important in determining the RC ability..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
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