I want to make this change to my burner

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I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:47 pm

I want to make this change to my burner which consists, in the event that there is an electrical blackout, the LPG stops immediately, and obviously it is possible to open the valve only by manually pressing the (always) button,
therefore, when the electrical power is restored, the valve will remain closed until the button is pressed,
everything works at 12 volts
 (example: cellular power supply)
the solenoid valve is used in the LPG systems of cars and operates at 12 volts
the relay and a very normal 12 volt double-exchange relay,
the scheme is very simple
as soon as the voltage (12 v) comes on, only the green LED or a small bulb will light up (both the LEDs and the bulbs must operate at 12 volts) as soon as the button is pressed the relay activates that to the solenoid valve and the blue LED but disconnect the green led,
LEDs off = no electricity,
green led on = everything is OK but the valve is closed
blue led on = everything is ok valve is open


valve
https://www.ebay.it/i/221668552088?chn=ps
led
https://www.ebay.it/itm/10-LED-5mm-ALTA-LUMINOSITa-RESISTENZE-12V-BIANCHI-BLU-ROSSO-VERDE-GIALLO-Diodi/252402857280?hash=item3ac461f540:m:mKCccYn-WIHhm_D6Ya1lgDQ
relè
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Rele-doppio-2-scambio-Omron-G2RL-2-12VDC-12V-DC-8A-250V-DPDT/253696581707?valvehash=item3b117ea04b:g:jN0AAOSw3tBbJ96H
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby still_stirrin » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:31 pm

OK. I have to ask....why do you want to do this? I guess it is rhetorical in a sense because obviously you are trying to “automate” your still. But that is against the philosophy of “always attended”.

It seems quite reasonable to simply shut the propane off if the electricity goes out and you lose power for your cooling water pump. A much better “failsafe” is human involvement...as you are supposed to always attend the distillation process.

Automated propane control is a dangerous proposition, especially in this case. I can’t fully approve of your proposed solution because of the premise on which it is based (unattended operations).
ss
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:35 pm

I have to agree with you still_stirrin that if the intention is to run unattended then it is a really bad idea and not condoned at all .

However , if the idea is simply to add an extra layer of protection then great .

Yupiteru.
I understand what you are trying to do with the relay but your drawing was a bit confusing so I hope you don't mind , I've redrawn it so hopefully it makes a bit more sense .

So the idea is that if there is a power cut then the gas drops out .Therefore you can't turn on the gas if there is no power either .

Then the power is available the green LED will light . When the start button is momentarily pressed , current will flow throw the switch and operate the relay coil . Once the relay coil is energized , the contacts will move over and the current to operate the relay coil is now supplied via the relay contact .....it is latched on . The relay will continue to stay latched until either the power is lost or the E-STOP switch (which I have drawn but does not have to be fitted) is hit .

The second set of relay contacts supply current to the Gas Valve solenoid and the Blue LED .
(Note that LEDs will blow up if connected directly to 12V and must have a series resistor to limit the current . Check that if you buy an LED indicator that it has the inbuilt resistor and is rated for 12V operation )

The merits of a auto shut off system verses just manually turning off the gas can be argued . However when the lights suddenly go out and you can't safely see your way to the gas bottle , you may realize the value of this idea . :thumbup:

Gas control.jpg


NO = Normally Open
NC = Normally Closed

This refers to the state of the switch or relay contacts when not pressed or energized
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby Reverend Newer » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:44 pm

I see...... this is a jackass diagram, if you need an LED to see your flame is lit..... :crazy:

Troll'n for spoonbill, make likker, yer not solving anything

next
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:33 pm

still_stirrin wrote:OK. I have to ask....why do you want to do this? I guess it is rhetorical in a sense because obviously you are trying to “automate” your still. But that is against the philosophy of “always attended”.

It seems quite reasonable to simply shut the propane off if the electricity goes out and you lose power for your cooling water pump. A much better “failsafe” is human involvement...as you are supposed to always attend the distillation process.

Automated propane control is a dangerous proposition, especially in this case. I can’t fully approve of your proposed solution because of the premise on which it is based (unattended operations).
ss

well .. obviously it's more security,
even if I did not say it all has to do with the interruption of the cooling caused by the lack of electricity,
never will I advise someone to automate the distiller,
this is a change that I will do,
I find it useful, for propane heaters
and rafredda with electric pumps,
then everyone does what feels right.
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:48 pm

Yummyrum wrote:I have to agree with you still_stirrin that if the intention is to run unattended then it is a really bad idea and not condoned at all .

However , if the idea is simply to add an extra layer of protection then great .

Yupiteru.
I understand what you are trying to do with the relay but your drawing was a bit confusing so I hope you don't mind , I've redrawn it so hopefully it makes a bit more sense .

So the idea is that if there is a power cut then the gas drops out .Therefore you can't turn on the gas if there is no power either .

Then the power is available the green LED will light . When the start button is momentarily pressed , current will flow throw the switch and operate the relay coil . Once the relay coil is energized , the contacts will move over and the current to operate the relay coil is now supplied via the relay contact .....it is latched on . The relay will continue to stay latched until either the power is lost or the E-STOP switch (which I have drawn but does not have to be fitted) is hit .

The second set of relay contacts supply current to the Gas Valve solenoid and the Blue LED .
(Note that LEDs will blow up if connected directly to 12V and must have a series resistor to limit the current . Check that if you buy an LED indicator that it has the inbuilt resistor and is rated for 12V operation )

The merits of a auto shut off system verses just manually turning off the gas can be argued . However when the lights suddenly go out and you can't safely see your way to the gas bottle , you may realize the value of this idea . :thumbup:

Gas control.jpg


NO = Normally Open
NC = Normally Closed

This refers to the state of the switch or relay contacts when not pressed or energized


congratulations, your design is better than mine,
I forgot to put a diode (like in 4148) on the relay power supply to eliminate the noise,


made this change then I have two more to do that concern security,
obviously the solenoid valve must be suitable for the purpose,
all the LPG system remains the same
I added the valve after the low pressure regulator
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:58 pm

Reverend Newer wrote:I see...... this is a jackass diagram, if you need an LED to see your flame is lit..... :crazy:

Troll'n for spoonbill, make likker, yer not solving anything

next

that you did not understand something about the simplicity of the project is safe,
advice to those who heat propane and cools with electric pumps or autoclave, to observe this change well,
precious seconds can pass to realize an unexpected electric blackout,
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:09 pm

that then to think about it, it seems to me a change to be done at home too,
(in my opinion)
no electricity, automatic gas closing
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby Yummyrum » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:17 am

yupiteru wrote:congratulations, your design is better than mine,

Not a competition ...you have a great idea :thumbup: , I was just making it easier for others to follow . :wink:

yupiteru wrote:I forgot to put a diode (like in 4148) on the relay power supply to eliminate the noise,

LOL ...so did I . The diodes I drew were the same LED's you Drew . .....But you are right , a Back EMF diode across the Relay coil would be best practice to stop contact wear. 1N4148 probably would do it .I'm just over cautious so I'd use a 1N4001.
I see the Gas Solenoid you linked to has one built into it .

yupiteru wrote:I added the valve after the low pressure regulator

good thinking


Reverend Newer wrote:I see...... this is a jackass diagram, if you need an LED to see your flame is lit..... :crazy:

Well actually no . The LED shows the gas is being supplied to the burner ....so if you can't see a flame , you better start worrying .
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:35 am

Yummyrum wrote:
yupiteru wrote:congratulations, your design is better than mine,

Not a competition ...you have a great idea :thumbup: , I was just making it easier for others to follow . :wink:

yupiteru wrote:I forgot to put a diode (like in 4148) on the relay power supply to eliminate the noise,

LOL ...so did I . The diodes I drew were the same LED's you Drew . .....But you are right , a Back EMF diode across the Relay coil would be best practice to stop contact wear. 1N4148 probably would do it .I'm just over cautious so I'd use a 1N4001.
I see the Gas Solenoid you linked to has one built into it .

yupiteru wrote:I added the valve after the low pressure regulator

good thinking


Reverend Newer wrote:I see...... this is a jackass diagram, if you need an LED to see your flame is lit..... :crazy:

Well actually no . The LED shows the gas is being supplied to the burner ....so if you can't see a flame , you better start worrying .


ok for in4001 is more robust, then surely those who know a bit of basic electronics, could still improve,
certainly could put something that makes a buzzer if something goes out of the optimal parameters,
personally another thing that annoyed me a lot, (just luckily) opening the delayed cooling water,
see that jet of steam that shoots at the ceiling I still can not forgive it,
 here I'm going to take a thermostat with the probe resting in the middle of the column as soon as the temperature exceeds the threshold I have to open the water circulation and ring a buzzer does not damage me if the water is already open,
maybe combined with a sensor that detects water flow,
hot column and water that does not flow = trouble in sight from there to 10 seconds,
this is also valid for those who go electric
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby jonnys_spirit » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:30 am

Maybe a buzzer but in case of electrical failure some emergency egress lighting triggered by loss of primary service is always helpful to see what you're doing. And of course manual bypass and battery backup to run your pump and you can finish the run. I'm sure a 12V pump is available.

Cheers!
-js
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Re: I want to make this change to my burner

Postby yupiteru » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:37 am

jonnys_spirit wrote:Maybe a buzzer but in case of electrical failure some emergency egress lighting triggered by loss of primary service is always helpful to see what you're doing. And of course manual bypass and battery backup to run your pump and you can finish the run. I'm sure a 12V pump is available.

Cheers!
-js

yes ... everyone has equipment that can work differently than we think, for sure anything that can warn you of a danger is welcome,
reiterating that the most important advice is to REMAIN NEAR THE DISTILLER.
for a few years, where I live,
 are installed by law of light bulbs with batteries that turn themselves on in the event of an electrical blackout,
however, if one understands a bit of electricity can settle everything a little at a time,
if one does not want to remain in the dark, a system finds it for sure
for other things it takes a bit of study.
I will do these two changes because I already have the solenoid valves,
the third "change" that I would like to have is to read the reflux on a display example 1.0 to 3.5 in real time,
but here things are not as simple as the other two changes,
even if the project has already been thought of
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