Propane or electric?

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:21 pm

Sincerest apologies if this question has been asked previously,
but I was just wondering what the cost difference would be between running a 5500 w heating element (that only runs at 4400, whatever happened to Made in USA?) and propane heat on a 15 gallon keg boiler? It usually takes about 3 hours give or take on the element, but I haven't used propane before.

Much Obliged ~

Adverse Effects · Post by **Adverse Effects** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:37 pm

Mitch wrote: It usually takes about 3 hours give or take on the element, but I haven't used propane before.

there is your problem

on the element i am guessing that its not a internal one

with gas you are throwing away about 50% of the heat you are making

with a external heating element you are throwing away about 60% of the heat you are making

with an internal heating element you are throwing away about 2% of the heat you are making

Post by **minime** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:06 am

Mitch wrote:Sincerest apologies if this question has been asked previously,
but I was just wondering what the cost difference would be between running a 5500 w heating element (that only runs at 4400, whatever happened to Made in USA?) and propane heat on a 15 gallon keg boiler? It usually takes about 3 hours give or take on the element, but I haven't used propane before.

Much Obliged ~

My propane burner will strip all of the alcohol out of 15 gallons in under 3 hours. Usually between 2.5 and 2.75 hours from fire on to fire off.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:31 pm

I suppose I should have mentioned that A. It is an internal heater, it screws in through threads I had drilled in a fitting welded on. B. it's a pot still, I'm makin' whiskey. C. The condenser is like 20 feet and REALLY cold. D. I may be off in the numbers. It's usually about 5-10 minutes for a liter once it gets going. I get about 5 gallons. E. I know propane has a lot of wasted heat and not to mention the potential danger if there's a vapor leak, I still want to know the answer to my original (and only) question: what's more economical to heat: propane or internal element? I want to know what's cheaper. If, for instance, it costs 10 bucks worth of propane and 30 bucks worth of electricity I don't give a damn, my dear, if all of the propane is not being utilized.

Post by **minime** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:45 pm

Mitch wrote:I suppose I should have mentioned that A. It is an internal heater, it screws in through threads I had drilled in a fitting welded on. B. it's a pot still, I'm makin' whiskey. C. The condenser is like 20 feet and REALLY cold. D. I may be off in the numbers. It's usually about 5-10 minutes for a liter once it gets going. I get about 5 gallons. E. I know propane has a lot of wasted heat and not to mention the potential danger if there's a vapor leak, I still want to know the answer to my original (and only) question: what's more economical to heat: propane or internal element? I want to know what's cheaper. If, for instance, it costs 10 bucks worth of propane and 30 bucks worth of electricity I don't give a damn, my dear, if all of the propane is not being utilized.

Your original post says "what's the difference" I didn't realize you were asking 'bout cost. To answer that question you'd have to know what you pay for electricity and what you pay for propane. You'll have to crunch that yourself.

Post by **Hawke** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:51 pm

I use propane, costs me around $25 to fill a 10 gallon bottle. I can get between 8 and 10 runs on a bottle. (potstill runs, usually 2.5 to 3 hours each) So makes it $2.50 to $3.00 per run. Just guessing, but think equivelant electric would be in the same range, for me.

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:01 pm

Not a hard question for me, i get propane for free and electricity for half price, so gas it is...

Your numbers (original and only question) will be different from everyone elses, and different again for yourself depending on your local economy and how smart you are.

For instance, and i don't really want the gas companies knowing we know, but locally in Australia, the 9 kilo gas bottle is king. It's hanging off every bbq in every house in Oz. The rotten stinking gas companies have just said for safety reasons, we're only gunna fill your 9 kilo bottle up to 8.5 kilo

Not many people know but if you take your 8.5 kilo bottle into your local gas distributor for swapping rather than a gas station, the price is cheaper.

Even fewer people know, if you take an 18 kilo gas bottle into your local gas distributor for swapping, the gas is cheaper again.

Not cheaper than two 8.5 bottles, cheaper than one 8.5kg bottle!.

Not by much, but you're getting more than twice as much gas too.....

price per litre goes down the bigger your bottle.

eternalfrost · Post by **eternalfrost** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:15 pm

electric can be much more efficient since you can 100% insulate
propane can by portable anywhere. electric needs an outlet, but can be done inside

*Prices and Participation may vary

Ayay · Post by **Ayay** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:25 am

Great tip punkin, I must look into an 18 Kilo bottle. I've been using the 8.5 kg swap bottles and now need to swap every two weeks or so.

Re gas vs electric, each utility will say they are cheapest but they will never use the same units. Google will convert the units: type in "1500 btu in kilojoules" or "50 kilojoules per second in btu per hour" and see the answer. You will have to work it out from there. Googling "compare the cost of power" brings up some nifty sites.

Adverse Effects · Post by **Adverse Effects** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:19 am

i will be getting gas cheaper soon as i just got a LPG tank put of a car and will be making a converter so i can hook it to my BBQ and my pot cooker hehe
when i get low (has a gas level built in to it) i just unhook it and take it to the gas station on the corner and fill it up

buy 8.5 Kg of bbq gas (LPG) and it cost's you about $20 = $2.36 p/Kg
full a LPG tank from a car with 80Kg of gas will cost you about $41 = $0.51 P/Kg

works for me

TopDog · Post by **TopDog** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:38 am

How big of an element do you need for say a fifty gallon boiler?

Post by **Husker** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:30 am

For an internal element, you would want something in the 10k watt range. 5kw will bring up to boil in about 3 hours, while 10kw will boil in about an hour and a half.

Note, the above is for a pot still, or stripping unit. I would think 5kW would be what you would want to run this at, if a pot still doing a spirit run.

For a column still, the wattage (running wattage), would depend upon the diameter of your column. For a 50 gallon boiler, you could certainly push a 3" (or 3.5") column, and likely push a 4" column. Again, it would be good to have a heatup wattage of about 10kw for column, simply so you do not have to sit there all day 'waiting'.

For propane, you would usually double the 'wattage' (after doing a conversion). 1 watt/hour == 3.4 BTU (approx). So if you need to double (due to 50% efficiency), 10kW internal element is about the same as 68k BTU external flame. If your efficiency is better than 50% (copper boiler bottom, baffling to trap/direct heat better, etc), then you will have to modify the above assumptions. I simply use the 50% efficiency value for the 'max' BTU wanted, and when running, simply adjust the flame to where I want it. I crank early on, then turn it back. I do not really care what the BTU's flowing actually is, just so long as the boil starts quick enough, and proceeds along at the speed I want it to be.

H.

TopDog · Post by **TopDog** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:41 am

How can I control that 10KW element? Any inexpensive ways to control the voltage so I can go from zero heat to full out 10KW?

Post by **Husker** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:32 am

TopD,

To get close to 10KW, you are probably going to have to have 2 full time 220 circuits. That is a lot of wattage.

However, for a home distiller, a 50 gallon boiler is a hell of a large boiler. Most here run rigs much smaller than that. I personally do not know why a home distiller would need a 50 gallon boiler. That is getting pretty close to a micro-distillery level. Many of us in the hobby environment, we are using a 7.5 or 15 gallon beer keg, where a 1500W to 2500W internal heating element, or a propane cooking element (such as a turkey fryer element) work just about perfectly.

50 gallons is pretty questionable on being 'for personal use', but that is what you listed. Now, if this 50 gallon boiler is for making fuel, then you might find better answers on a fuel forum (there are ethanol for fuel forums around). We do have a fuel board here, but I do not think there is nearly as much knowledge base here as you will find on the boards which 'specialize' in making fuel ethanol. Most of us here are not working on that larger scale, and simply do not have the working expertise to advise.

H.

Post by **Tater** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:52 am

TopDog wrote:How can I control that 10KW element? Any inexpensive ways to control the voltage so I can go from zero heat to full out 10KW?

I see a lot of elect furnaces that are 10 k and operated off a 70 amp breaker .They stage the heat by using sequencers and a 24 volt transformer to power it.In homes they are operated by the thermostat but ya could operate it with off onn switch as well or separate the stages and use either or both.Reason there used it to Not slam circuits with that much amp draw at once. Could also be done using contacters or simply 2 disconnects

Post by **theholymackerel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:53 am

Let's see...

A 50 gallon boiler filled with 45 gallons of 50% low wines has 22.5 gallons of pure ethanol in it. Lets say ya recover 90% of that... so ya get 20.25 gallons of pure ethanol in a slightly more diluted state.

Once ya dilute yer distillate to 40% and bottle it ya now have a yeild of slightly more than 50 gallons (50.625 to be exact) of 80 proof hooch. That's roughly 250 bottles of 80 proof from one spirit run.

No-one's gonna ever believe that's for personal comsumption.

Ugly · Post by **Ugly** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:10 am

instead of controlling a single 10KW element you control two 5500W elements. Both together can be wired to work off a standard North American range plug and individually switched on or off by a local wired breaker box. Easy as pie

If you want bigger elements than that, I will be attempting a trial using about 300KW or so of 600V three phase elements this fall on a a large propane tank converted to boiler (off an 800amp panel, no big deal).

Post by **stillvodka** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:17 am

theholymackerel wrote:Let's see...

A 50 gallon boiler filled with 45 gallons of 50% low wines has 22.5 gallons of pure ethanol in it. Lets say ya recover 90% of that... so ya get 20.25 gallons of pure ethanol in a slightly more diluted state.

Once ya dilute yer distillate to 40% and bottle it ya now have a yeild of slightly more than 50 gallons (50.625 to be exact) of 80 proof hooch. That's roughly 250 bottles of 80 proof from one spirit run.

No-one's gonna ever believe that's for personal comsumption.

In reply to my post on his other thread, he said it was for Fuel

Post by **Husker** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:22 am

stillvodka wrote: In reply to my post on his other thread, he said it was for Fuel

I figgerd so. That is why I qualified. 50 gallon is still on the small side for fuel'rs, but certainly a runnable size.

It is whole different view of distilling, when you want to produce a 500-1000 gallons a year of 100%, vs 12 gallons or so of 40% like us hobby 'shiners are doing.

H.

Post by **stillvodka** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:48 am

Husker wrote:
stillvodka wrote: In reply to my post on his other thread, he said it was for Fuel
I figgerd so. That is why I qualified. 50 gallon is still on the small side for fuel'rs, but certainly a runnable size.

It is whole different view of distilling, when you want to produce a 500-1000 gallons a year of 100%, vs 12 gallons or so of 40% like us hobby 'shiners are doing.

H.

There is certainly a question

mark here.

Post by **HookLine** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:46 pm

stillvodka wrote:
theholymackerel wrote:No-one's gonna ever believe that's for personal comsumption.
In reply to my post on his other thread, he said it was for Fuel

In which case he would be much better off joining this dedicated fuel forum.

Post by **blanikdog** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:10 pm

theholymackerel wrote: ... No-one's gonna ever believe that's for personal comsumption.

Maybe he's a very heavy drinker, holy?

blanik

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:15 pm

I would still appreciate an answer other than "depends" - that's really as much of a question as the initial question.
For you personally, which would be cheaper? It'll take a while to figure it out at my own. If I could figure it out easily and quickly I would, I wouldn't have posted here.

Obliged ~

Ugly · Post by **Ugly** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:25 pm

Seriously, if this is a fuel still, dumping commercially prepared power into it makes little sense. To remain carbon neutral and keep the costs inline with an expected savings you pretty much need to use a bio source heating solution like veggie oil or wood.

The per BTU cost of propane beats the per BTU cost of electricity anywhere in north america for heating applications of any kind. That's a definitive answer backed by thousands of published and researchable studies by utilities and propane companies anywhere. The per BTU cost of fuel oil (#2 furnace oil) is cheaper yet. Run a comparison for the energy stored in a litre of oil vs a litre of propane and calculate the per BTU cost to see.

All the above doesn't matter unless you deliver that energy into the still efficiently. The easiest to replicate designs are those offered by hot water heaters. Nothing consumer grade is more efficient at transferring external thermal energy into a liquid than a hot water heater. Copy that.

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:34 pm

Mitch wrote:I would still appreciate an answer other than "depends" - that's really as much of a question as the initial question.
For you personally, which would be cheaper? It'll take a while to figure it out at my own. If I could figure it out easily and quickly I would, I wouldn't have posted here.

Obliged ~

Dunno who this is aimed at, but i thought i clearly answered your question.

goose eye · Post by **goose eye** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:04 am

i no a hand full of boys that go thru over 50 gal a year rather than be medicated by va.
pick your poison freedom aint free

lp is bout the only way unlessin you got free wood an can regulate with certainty.
so im tole

Ugly · Post by **Ugly** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:21 am

Goose, if a person has the skills to build a still, that person can sure as heck build a wood gassifier. Regulating heat output from wood gas is the same as regulating heat output for a methane burner (low pressure gas). Took me two days to build a wood gas unit capable of delivering 1/2 million BTU per hour of gas for heating... that's 75lbs of hardwood gone to dust every hour.

The Baker · Post by **The Baker** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:26 am

Hi,
I'm currently distilling on our farm, ten minutes from home. No power so I use a little petrol pump for recirculation of cooling water from the big storage tank. This is filled (when it rains which is not often now!) from rain on the shed roof.
I am using 9kg propane bottles which now cost $30 AUD to fill.
We are installing a 700 litre rainwater tank at home and have a big wok burner on the barbecue which is connected to NATURAL GAS. So I will probably set up a still on the barbie, with cooling water recirculated from the new tank. Top the tank up a bit with the hose if it doesn't rain!
Lots cheaper to run, never need to change gas bottles, and more convenient being at home.
Regards,
The Baker

goose eye · Post by **goose eye** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:55 am

ugly you made somethin that makein all woods soft or hard green or not give the same numbers time an time again based only on weight of the wood. ole boys like wood an been in the business they went by cords an that aint no face cord

so im tole

Ugly · Post by **Ugly** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:47 am

goose eye wrote:ugly you made somethin that makein all woods soft or hard green or not give the same numbers time an time again based only on weight of the wood. ole boys like wood an been in the business they went by cords an that aint no face cord

so im tole

I go by cords too, but to get an easy conversion to measurable BTU's you need to go by weight. By changing the wood to producer gas and scrubbing the tar out of it through a barrel of straw or horseshit , you can burn the gas through a standard low pressure burner, it acts just like methane burning, totally controllable and very predictable. For the fuel still where no one is drinking it and quality really doesn't matter, I just use charcoal.

Anyhow Goose, a full cord of hardwood weighs about 4000lbs dry, give or take. 2 full cord (4x4x8) is about all I can get on the Ford F450 super duty truck without blowing a tire (4-5tons). That's about 26 million potential BTU in a full cord of hardwood stacked and dry.

Make a lot of fuel with that much hardwood.

Home Distiller

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