Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

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joshswest
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Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

Hello everyone,

Has anyone built a shotgun condenser out of a 1 1/2'' copper pipe? I have an old column I want to convert to a shotgun and was wondering how many of what is smaller copper pipes 1/2'' or 3/8'' would fit inside the 1 1/2'' pipe I have.

Thank you
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by shadylane »

I tried using four 1/2" inside a 1-1/2 jacket but used three instead
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=49639
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by still_stirrin »

I've used seven 3/8" soft tubing in a 1-1/2" ID shell. It gets snug trying to fish the tube bank into the shell, but it makes a very efficient condenser.

But I agree with Shadylane, four 1/2" ID rigid copper pipes will fit and function fantastic for you.

Just don't forget to add at least 3 intermediate baffles so you get a good "swirl" action in the water jacket.
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

still_stirrin wrote:I've used seven 3/8" soft tubing in a 1-1/2" ID shell. It gets snug trying to fish the tube bank into the shell, but it makes a very efficient condenser.

But I agree with Shadylane, four 1/2" ID rigid copper pipes will fit and function fantastic for you.

Just don't forget to add at least 3 intermediate baffles so you get a good "swirl" action in the water jacket.
ss
Awesome thank you guys!! When you build the baffles do you make a couple of the pipes pass though them and then solder them in place to keep them from moving around? And when placing them do you just offset them along the length of the condenser?

Cheers
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You dont need baffles, baffles have just become a thing that people think you need. They work just fine without.
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by shadylane »

For comparison, I have a 1" inside a 1-1/2" liebig
It out performs the three 1/2 tubes in the shotgun
And was easier to build
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by StillerBoy »

The shotgun PC condenser I use and build uses 5 - 3/8" x 16" tubes with 2 bafflles.. it knocks down whatever the 3" will sent its way..
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

shadylane wrote:For comparison, I have a 1" inside a 1-1/2" liebig
It out performs the three 1/2 tubes in the shotgun
And was easier to build
So interesting! Thats exactly what I was going to build but everyone said go shotgun go shotgun. What are the specs of your 1 1/2'' over 1'' like length and such? Do you run it vertical or at a 45' or so? Also did you crimp the inside 1'' tube?

I agree it would be waaay easier to build then a shotgun!!
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

StillerBoy wrote:The shotgun PC condenser I use and build uses 5 - 3/8" x 16" tubes with 2 bafflles.. it knocks down whatever the 3" will sent its way..
Love the look of that!!! Did you build that?
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by StillerBoy »

Yah.. all hand built.. the picture shows the total length of the condense and the reducing from 3" to 1.5".. it knocks down whatever the 3" gives it, with a water flow rate of less than a liter..
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by shadylane »

joshswest wrote:
shadylane wrote:For comparison, I have a 1" inside a 1-1/2" liebig
It out performs the three 1/2 tubes in the shotgun
And was easier to build
So interesting! Thats exactly what I was going to build but everyone said go shotgun go shotgun. What are the specs of your ike length and such? Do you run it vertical or at a 45' or so? Also did you crimp the inside 1'' tube?
Just my 2 cent's worth, crimping is a waste of time :lol:'
The 1-1/2'' over 1'' liebig is 36" long
I've run it from vertical to almost horizontal and it doesn't make much difference.
I figure, Vertical for electric heat and almost horizontal if your cooking with gas :lol:
4" of #4 wire makes the seal between the inner and outer tubes, just bend the wire into a ring and cut it to the right diameter.
And solder or braze. That's a lot cheaper than BIG expensive copper fittings
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

StillerBoy wrote:The shotgun PC condenser I use and build uses 5 - 3/8" x 16" tubes with 2 bafflles.. it knocks down whatever the 3" will sent its way..
I just bought some 3/8'' ID tubing and there is no way I will get 5 tubes inside the 1 1/2'' pipe. Did you buy the 3/8'' OD tubing to get the 5 tubes to fit super nicely?

Thanks
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cede
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by cede »

3/8 ID is 1/2 OD so I don't think 5 won't fit in a 1-1/2 unless you have a 20 ton press to make them slide in :)
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by ShineRunner »

joshswest wrote:
StillerBoy wrote:The shotgun PC condenser I use and build uses 5 - 3/8" x 16" tubes with 2 bafflles.. it knocks down whatever the 3" will sent its way..
I just bought some 3/8'' ID tubing and there is no way I will get 5 tubes inside the 1 1/2'' pipe. Did you buy the 3/8'' OD tubing to get the 5 tubes to fit super nicely?

Thanks
What you have is 1/2” tubing. It’s frustrating and confusing, but hard copper pipe is sold by ID. Soft copper tubing is usually sold by OD. So, 3/8 tube would be 1/4” ID soft copper tubing. Unfortunately, people are easily confused by this and don’t always refer to which dimension they are talking about. Even more frustrating is that hard pipe is actually standardized by OD- type M,L, and K pipe all have different IDs (by small amounts) but have the same O.D. to be able to fit standard fittings...

I would guess that 5x1/2” OD tubing would be pretty tough to fit into 1.5” pipe. Assuming you have type M pipe, your ID is about 1.527”. That would be a tough squeeze.

For comparison, my shotgun is made out of 2” DWV pipe with 5x1/2” ID pipe. The I.D. of the 2” pipe is about 2.041” and (even though that’s not how they’re lined up) 3 pipes side by side would be 1 7/8” (1.875”) for a cushion of 0.166”. And that was really tight.

Your 1/2” O.D. tube inside of 1.5” pipe would be 1.5” for a cushion of 0.027”. Probably too tight to make it happen.


All of that to say that you should probably go with 4x1/2” OD tubing and make it just a little longer. Or go with your Liebig plan :D Lots of options...

SR
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by zapata »

Ideally you want to have a spacing between the tubes of 1.25 to 1.5 times their diameter, measured from center to center. If you don't have that much space you might want to go with a larger shell or fewer tubes. If you have more space than 1.5x OD you could ideally fit more tubes. E.g., for 3/8" nominal pipe with a true 1/2" OD they should have a center to center spacing of .625 to .75 inches.

You can use this calculator to figure it out. Just put in your shell ID and use the center to center spacing you calculate for the smaller circles (e.g.. .625 to .75 for a true OD of .5").
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smal ... _1849.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
You'll see that if your shell is 1.5" type L copper (true id 1.505) and your tubes are true OD .5" you can fit a max of 3 inside. However if your shell is type M (true ID of 1.527) you can fit four in there.

Nominal 1/2" copper pipe has a true OD of .625 so you can't fit multiple tubes in a 1.5" shell and still get good flow. They would have to almost touch.

I made a pretty detailed thread a while back on info I gleaned from professional design textbooks. That covers tube spacing, baffle design etc.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=67493

Of course these are ideal industrial designs, and a variety of solutions work at home. E.g. since the 1.5" she'll is on hand and free, it's worth making it work even if a blank slate design says you "should" use something else.
Reference for copper pipe dimensions
https://www.petersenproducts.com/Copper ... s/1979.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

zapata wrote:Ideally you want to have a spacing between the tubes of 1.25 to 1.5 times their diameter, measured from center to center. If you don't have that much space you might want to go with a larger shell or fewer tubes. If you have more space than 1.5x OD you could ideally fit more tubes. E.g., for 3/8" nominal pipe with a true 1/2" OD they should have a center to center spacing of .625 to .75 inches.

You can use this calculator to figure it out. Just put in your shell ID and use the center to center spacing you calculate for the smaller circles (e.g.. .625 to .75 for a true OD of .5").
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smal ... _1849.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
You'll see that if your shell is 1.5" type L copper (true id 1.505) and your tubes are true OD .5" you can fit a max of 3 inside. However if your shell is type M (true ID of 1.527) you can fit four in there.

Nominal 1/2" copper pipe has a true OD of .625 so you can't fit multiple tubes in a 1.5" shell and still get good flow. They would have to almost touch.

I made a pretty detailed thread a while back on info I gleaned from professional design textbooks. That covers tube spacing, baffle design etc.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=67493

Of course these are ideal industrial designs, and a variety of solutions work at home. E.g. since the 1.5" she'll is on hand and free, it's worth making it work even if a blank slate design says you "should" use something else.
Reference for copper pipe dimensions
https://www.petersenproducts.com/Copper ... s/1979.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
WOW thank you for all the great info!! Went back to Home Depot last night and got some 3/8'' OD pipe instead of the 3/8'' ID pipe. Fits much better and I can easily fit 5 tubes inside my 1.5'' pipe just like the picture stillerboy posted. Stillerboy said his works like a champ but anyone see a problem with the 5 - 3/8'' OD pipe for the shotgun that will be about 20'' long with 2 baffles?

Cheers
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by still_stirrin »

joshswest wrote:Went back to Home Depot last night and got some 3/8'' OD pipe instead of the 3/8'' ID pipe. Fits much better and I can easily fit 5 tubes inside my 1.5'' pipe just like the picture stillerboy posted. Stillerboy said his works like a champ but anyone see a problem with the 5 - 3/8'' OD pipe for the shotgun that will be about 20'' long with 2 baffles?
Believe it or not, if you can fit 5 x 3/8” OD tubes in a 1-1/2” ID shell, you can also fit 7 tubes. I’ve done it. The tube bank fits snugly, but that’s OK. The advantage of 7 over 5 tubes is that the vapor will be slower, thereby increasing dwell time.

Also, I would add another baffle just to increase the swirling of the coolant around the tube bank. If you take your time and build the shotgun properly, it should serve you well. And it’ll be efficient with the coolant flow as well.

Remember, slow flow is good with the water’s exit temperature approaching the vapor’s inlet temperature. That means you’re extracting the heat in a uniform, efficient manner.
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

still_stirrin wrote:
joshswest wrote:, you can also fit 7 tubes. I’ve done it.
WOW 7!!! Do you happen to have the cut template for the 7 pipes? Would save me a ton of time!
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

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zapata wrote: I made a pretty detailed thread a while back on info I gleaned from professional design textbooks. That covers tube spacing, baffle design etc.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=67493
I did a boatload of research into the principles of shell and tube condenser design until I came across Zapata's thread, which neatly summarized everything (and more) I had read and bookmarked. Indeed, it is a very elegant resource for anyone inclined to optimize their shotgun, for it presents heat transfer engineers' measured data that actually applies down to the hobby level. Detractors who claim overkill at this level are invariably correct.

But by asking, it sounds like you're up to building the best condenser you can. This is a popular route, and designing a more efficient shotgun condenser comes down to incorporating two principles, baffles and pitch. (Here's an unfortunate example of a guy who ignored both of these: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=50209). IMO, pitch carries more weight than baffles, but the beauty of it is that Zapata laid it all out there for everyone.

If you have the skills and inclination to apply these principles, enjoy the challenges and rewards of your build. If not, your condenser will still work.
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

Ok here is my shotgun build out of a 1 1/2'' pipe and 7 - 3/8'' OD pipes. Just ran water through it and no leaks!!!! Cant wait to clean it and see how it works!!!
IMG_2865.jpg
IMG_2867.jpg
IMG_2868.jpg
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by joshswest »

And a few more pictures..
IMG_2877.jpg
IMG_2878.jpg
IMG_2880.jpg
IMG_2881.jpg
IMG_2882.jpg
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by Twisted Brick »

Nice job. Looks like it was a fun build.
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by still_stirrin »

Yep. Good looking rig. It’ll work great for you. Plenty of knockdown with great efficiency.
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by ShineRunner »

Looks good!
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

Post by zapata »

My first thought was you need to put some pants on that boy! But then I guess if you have no shame letting his tubes flap around for the world to see, why not?
:)
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Re: Shotgun built out of 1 1/2'' copper pipe

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zapata wrote:My first thought was you need to put some pants on that boy! But then I guess if you have no shame letting his tubes flap around for the world to see, why not?
:)
HAHAHAHA thats hilarious!! Im planning on cutting the tubes down to fit a reducer over them. Or like you said just let them hang!!!
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