Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

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Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am

Hey all! So here's my setup, a 5 gal pot still, 1 gal thumper, 1.5 gal worm 'keg' (sorta?)
still.jpg


I currently cool with ice because hose isn't an option, at least it would be a tremendous pain in the ass; leave it at that for now, nor would faucet, nor do I have a creek or something nearby. We go through 2 large bags (I think they're 20?) per run of 5 gal.

I had an idea to pickup a recirculating pump, a large container, and dump the ice bags into the container and make a slushie...

This pump
AD40075-75GPHPump.jpg


This 18 gal tub
18gal bucket.jpg
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All told cost would be about $44 to rig this setup; question is, do you think it would work for me? My worm keg already has a hose hookup on the top and bottom for inlet/outlet, and the pump has a flow adjustment. I'm also open to alternative suggestions.

As it were, if we really get into hose water is expensive, our water bill is about $60 a month for two male adults and we do our best to conserve water, i.e. the good toilet flushers, short showers, don't flush toilet if it's only after 1 urination... Also there's no damn reason in Fort Wayne it should be like an AZ water bill, but, anyway... Also, I'd need 200 feet or so of hose and crazy connections to get it all working; so hose is a non-starter. Faucet maybe a little easier, it's closer, but again, my partner and Dad would strongly prefer not to go that route.

This suggested possibility we could have a little chlorine in the water and ice melting makes more water each run, filling the reservoir, and we're not using billable water, or constantly tamping ice every (literally) 2 minutes because steam starts coming out the worm.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby seamusm53 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:50 am

If I've read previous posters correctly you might not even need the ice for only a 5 gallon run.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Truckinbutch » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:31 pm

You are headed in the right direction and just not quite there yet .
Recirc pump is a given . What you need to focus on is a cooler . Think a salvage yard auto radiator with 12 volt fan . Cool your hot discharge water off the top of tour condenser tank and feed it back into the bottom :idea: Ice packing is going to enhance huffing and smearing . The ideal is to gradually cool from vapor to liquid .
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Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Mike6090 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:57 pm

With that setup I think you will be fine running 18 gal of recirc water starting at 70 degrees. It should be able to run up to 125 or more with just the recirculating water and you probably won’t get up to 125 with that much recirculation. No need for a cooler. At 5 gal maybe a cooler.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:11 pm

To clarify, my original idea was to place the submersible pump at the bottom of the 18 gal container, feeding the push line to the top in of my 1.5 gal worm can, then the bottom line of the worm can feeding into the top of the 18 gal container. The pump pulls from the bottom of the container, open water, from what I've read I may not even need ice for a 5 gal run (ice in the water in the 18 gal tub).

Would this be a sufficient setup, or do I need to get more complex, say with radiators, and if so I guess it may be simpler to get a large multi-gallon container and larger worm and go that route as I've read many just run something like 5 gal or so buckets with a worm coiled in them...
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby zapata » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:45 pm

I think a radiator is overkill for 5 gallons. But you can probably get a 32 gallon brute trash can for not much more $ than that tub. Would definitely be overkill, but you might want to ferment in it in the future.

Actually, I'm gonna edit this, a transmission radiator is probably as cheap as a brute, and would *probably suffice for a 5 gallon still. OR, you might just have a free radiator laying around in a junk car. Lotsa ways to skin this cat, I'm just not sure 18 gallons is quite enough to not use ice at all, ice is bound to be more expensive than water.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:33 pm

Would the 18 gal and say five 1 gallon jugs, frozen and floating before each run, be more than enough for my 5 gal still?

The 18 gal is the perfect height for draining off the bottom outlet the way my setup is...setup.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Truckinbutch » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:55 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:Would the 18 gal and say five 1 gallon jugs, frozen and floating before each run, be more than enough for my 5 gal still?

The 18 gal is the perfect height for draining off the bottom outlet the way my setup is...setup.

Ice floating around a worm defeats the cooling gradient . Put sand/gravel in the ice jugs so they sink to the bottom . You want warm/hot at the top to cold at the outlet for proper condensation .
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:07 pm

I see what you're saying but maybe I've explained my concept wrong.

I have a 1.5 gallon, maybe it's an open topped flake? It's a bucket basically with the worm wound down from top to bottom, then there is a hose inlet on top and on bottom to attach a 1/4" plastic tube.

I want to get the 18 gal tub, fill it with water, float the ice jugs in there, and sink the pump in there. Outlet from the pump to the top inlet of the worm bucket, bottom hose inlet/outlet of the bucket will be a tube into the top of the 18 gal tub to drain water out. Temp in the tub will likely stay relatively normative as warmer water hitting top will circulate around the floaters, and cool bottom water being fed from pump via tube to top of the worm bucket.

Or do I feed outlet to the bottom of the bucket, and if so I'm not sure if water would drain out the outlet via hose at top, or just overflow. At least by hooking the pump to the top I'm sure that gravity will drain the water out because that's what happens now while I use ice, as ice melts the water drains out the bottom hole. It might be nice to let warmer water drain out that top hole, just I'm not sure if it would work that way out a 1/4" hole into a plastic hose, or if physics of liquids and incoming water pressure at the bottom would rather just overflow the bucket.

At which point I'd have to have it suspended over the 18 gal tub... Making my top in design idea work better...
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby zapata » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:12 pm

I just can't believe that water is more expensive than ice. Seriously, check your rate. I pay a fixed rate for water service with a base allowance. Excess is charged at less than a dollar per 1,000 gallons.
It costs me 60+ times more in electricity to make ice than it does to buy the water.
(roughly $.06 per gallon to freeze water, > $.001 per gallon to pay for excess water)
I have pretty cheap electricity, and probably cheap water once the minimum bill is payed.
But here's the thing, coolant water can last almost forever. Use whatever reservoir is convenient, but have another one nearby to swap the water out if you need to. You can just swap your hot line out to the top of bigger reservoir, and siphon fresh cool water into your convenient tub to replace the hot you are pumping out. A used 55 gallon plastic barrel will cost you like $5-$10 to buy, and at my rate $.06 to fill up once a year. Keep it dark and it won't grow algae and will last months to years before it gets funky. But if you go the ice route you have to freeze it every time.

A quick googling tells me the most expensive water in the US is Monterey CA at about $.02 per gallon. I don't know if that's really correct, I barely read the article, but it's still a third of what it costs me to freeze that gallon.

Confession: I have used ice many times when I was just too lazy, or the barrel became a fermenter, or bla bla bla. But that's also why I know it's way more expensive. What else you gonna do while babysitting a still other than calculate how many watts it takes to make whiskey and / or ice?

Edit: I came up with the $.06 / gallon to make ice based on $.10 a kw power if you want an easy way to compare yourself.
Edit #2, thought about it a bit more. Pretty sure say you get 16 gallons in your tub, and 1.5 gallons in your flake stand start, that's 17.5 gallons for a 5 gallon still, AND that coolant is now moving not stagnant like in a normal flake stand. I think that'll do with no need for ice. Old timer rule of thumb for a flake stand is bigger than the still, and you'll be 3 times bigger. That being said your worm is probably proportionally shorter than the old timers woulda used, but again, it'll be more efficient now that you're moving it. I think i'll be fine.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Danespirit » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:40 am

I have a 25 L milk can for a boiler, that's about 6,6 gal US.
As I use my sink as a reservoir, there can't be much water in there. At best there is about 8-10 L.
Thinking about a super simple solution, this is what I came up with.
It's essentially nothing more than a heat exchanger...a worm.
From my Liebig goes a hose to the inlet of the copper piping you see in that SS bucket (holds 12 L of water).
From there to the sink where the pump also is located.
Btw..my pump is a tiny 7 W Aquarium pump, 1 m lift height, with an 8 mm hose connector on. Your 75 gal/hr (283 L/hr) pump should be more than enough to keep your rig running cool.
Believe it or not, this tiny thing is all it takes. My heating element is 2 KW and runs almost full blast on a stripping run.
If I had a little more copper at hand, I'd make it two or three turns higher and have a bigger bucket.. let's say 20 L or so.
However, this was what I had and I'm a cheap bastard with an expensive taste for liquor..so I had to do something.
Forget about the ice...it's a risk for shock cooling and the result is a huffing condenser.
I almost forgot...I siphon the top layer off the bucket as the water becomes hot. A cheap pump siphon does the job.
There is not much wasted water even during a hard stripping run.
IMG_2465.JPG
12 mm copper pipe with brass connectors soldered in

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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Cu29er » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:35 am

.

If you are getting a pump system, just make a straight pipe-within-a-pipe condenser you'll see examples all over this site to hook the pump to and recirc to whatever tub you use. Inner tubing is the same size you have for your coil now so you can hook up to your stack. More compact and the soldering is pretty easy to build.

.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:37 am

zapata - "Edit #2, thought about it a bit more. Pretty sure say you get 16 gallons in your tub, and 1.5 gallons in your flake stand start, that's 17.5 gallons for a 5 gallon still, AND that coolant is now moving not stagnant like in a normal flake stand. I think that'll do with no need for ice. Old timer rule of thumb for a flake stand is bigger than the still, and you'll be 3 times bigger. That being said your worm is probably proportionally shorter than the old timers woulda used, but again, it'll be more efficient now that you're moving it. I think i'll(it'll, right?) be fine"

THIS is what I was wondering; if my cheap, no more work, or buying more tools (I don't have a soldering iron, or anything beyond a drill, hammer, and wrenches and screwdrivers), would work, it sounds like it will; awesome!

Danespirit - sounds like your basically also backing up zapata, backing up my idea, and that I don't need ice; also, I can fill the bucket once and never need to refill (reasonably) as long as I keep it dark (in the garage, so).

If it ever starts to get funky, can I add like a cup of bleach or something, or what could I add to keep the water okay - or is it better at the funky point to refill it?


I appreciate the other suggestions, but like I said, no additional tools, and tools cost money... This is a $40 solution, one-time, and simple as hell.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby zapata » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:15 pm

Don't use too much bleach, it isn't friendly on copper. Though a low amount will be fine as long as you rinse the copper after use.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Kareltje » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Reading this thread I wonder why you do not consider cooling in air.
Unless the ambient temperature is over 30 dgr C this should be easily possible.
I have a 10 m long winding ss coil sitting in the air and I prefer to use it: no worries about water inlet or outlet. Just still real slowly!
There are some threads on this forum about forced air cooling with fins on the condenser and air blowers.
One could think of a kind of cooling tower, where the cooling water from the condenser flows in a thin film downward into a collecting vessel to feed the condenser again.
I use wet cloth on the coils if I am in a hurry. The vaporizing of the water in the cloths takes more heat than the warming up of cooling water in the Liebig.
Takes more space and time, but much less water.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:04 pm

My partner, my dad and I, already spend 5-6 hours on one 5 gallon cook. I don't know what 'real slowly' means, but that's slowly for us. It takes about an hour to heat up so I spend 4-5 taking the alcohol out of 5 gallons, sometimes I'll slow down more and take 5-6 depending on how careful I want to be about my jars and hearts. I'm not looking to take longer!
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Truckinbutch » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:38 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:My partner, my dad and I, already spend 5-6 hours on one 5 gallon cook. I don't know what 'real slowly' means, but that's slowly for us. It takes about an hour to heat up so I spend 4-5 taking the alcohol out of 5 gallons, sometimes I'll slow down more and take 5-6 depending on how careful I want to be about my jars and hearts. I'm not looking to take longer!

Yasee , that's where many of us diverge . My setup is 2 15.5 ss kegs . Boiler and thumper heated with propane . A 24 gallon AG charge for a strip run takes 1hr 40 min from flame to stream . 2 more hours stripping to 20% finish has a run done with 3 1/2 gallons of low wines collected . Takes about 38 gallons of tap water run through my Liebig condenser .
Tap water in my cheapest utility so I don't recirculate . I do have everything in place to recirc if circumstance should change .
That spirit run will go back into the boiler with an added gallon of water and 2 gallons of water in the thumper . 58 minutes flame to stream . Twisted , pencil lead size stream that will run 90 to 95 minutes down to 20% .
If you upgrade I think you can invest much less time for greater rewards .
My first run with just a boiler and no experience took 12 hours + because I chose to err on the side of caution . We all started somewhere .
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:36 pm

I have a thumper too and I normally just do one run on a batch, then make cuts, then save heads and tails to either dump into a future run of the same or to do a heads/tails run down the line.

I have propane too, I think maybe a big difference is I only heat my pot and that's it. My pot takes about an hour to get to heat and the worm to dripping, and then depending how stuff is going an average run is 3-5 hours. I usually judge how fast I want to go based on what time we started, what I'm getting off the worm, what we do or don't have going on later, what I'm cooking/what I spent on what I'm cooking. I don't mind 4-5 hours for sitting down for a run to talk with my dad and cook off some shine, especially because I don't do stripping runs and all that, once and done for my setup and methods/practice.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Truckinbutch » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:47 pm

If you got a Dad you like and likes you to share time with who cares how long you spend .
I never had that situation .
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:10 pm

Oh I really appreciate him, but he gets real testy after about 7 hours of cook. Just impatient and his diabetes and arthritis starts working on him by then. I'm typically ready to finish up by then too. We love spending time together, we live together. There's not much anything I can do for 7-8 hours without needing a change/break.

I made some life changes a year back when his health had some shifts, and I love sharing life with my pops. I divorced a few years ago and after several alone this is good.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Truckinbutch » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:31 pm

Cherish what you got . You can ramp up your stilln at any time .
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Kareltje » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:50 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:My partner, my dad and I, already spend 5-6 hours on one 5 gallon cook. I don't know what 'real slowly' means, but that's slowly for us. It takes about an hour to heat up so I spend 4-5 taking the alcohol out of 5 gallons, sometimes I'll slow down more and take 5-6 depending on how careful I want to be about my jars and hearts. I'm not looking to take longer!

Yeah, OK, I grant you that and dad.
But you had a problem about water supply, and shifting to cooling with air could solve that. Maybe cooling the condenser with air, or cooling the cooling water with air.

Oh, and real slowly for me is about 12 l wash in 5 hours, which is probably ridiculous to you. But I only have to worry about changing the collecting pots in time. And when I have a 3 l pot not even that!
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:26 pm

So when you say changing your collecting pots in time, are you sitting and watching your cook that entire time? Because I babysit my cook, that doesn't sound like you are, when you say 'worry about changing my collecting pots in time'. When I started out I cooked slower, and my first couple were 8 hour cooks and my dad was really crabby and sore from the crappy chair by the time we were done with those. I also think it was unnecessary, and I was getting maybe a drip every 10 seconds in those cooks, or something.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby Kareltje » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:10 pm

A drip every 10 seconds is really really slow.

We can discuss about the things one does during a run. But that is touching the rule of NEVER leaving your still unattended.
And that is not what this thread is about, judging by the title and your OP.

Talks about subjects that are not according to the rules of this forum are not appreciated. Lex dura, sed lex.
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby MoonBreath » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:57 am

Get ya another coil and bucket (5gal bucket)
Put coil 2 in bucket 2.
Run flake/condenser outlet into coil 2.
Run coil 2 out into bucket 1 with pump.
Run pump out to flake/condenser.
Keep bucket 2 with coil 2 full of ice.
The 18 gal bucket won't be needed, 5gal will work..
Get ya temp gun or floating therm for reference.
20-25' coil and worm preferred lengths.
Also, speed controller maybe able to dial back pump ifn needed ..
You just made a pre-chiller system. :thumbup:
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Re: Debating a new cooling option for my worm, help?

Postby distiller_dresden » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:27 pm

Ended up going with the bucket and motor. The motor wasn't strong enough to hook up to the top, so I hooked up to the bottom. It drains from the top, and works great. For a 5 gallon run I almost have enough cool water without chilling, but near the end, maybe the last 25% of my hearts, the water started heating up and my outlet worm was getting warm. So I ran and got a 20lb bag of ice and dumped it into the top of the bucket. Did the trick, chilled right down to start temp, and finished strong. It was a perfect solution in that the motor was $18, the bucket was $6, the bag of ice maybe $3.

The water is covered and sitting in my garage, should keep. Any pointers to 'keeping' the water fine? It came from the tap, so it's local system water with whatever is in there, like chlorine and what not, to keep it healthy, but not made to sit still long term I'm sure. No light or heat though. Anything I should add, like a few tablespoons or 1/4 cup of bleach, or maybe some pool chlorine, or something? I don't have an issue changing it like every 3-4 months, if it's good for that then nothing needed to add, hurrah.
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