8 inch shotgun questions

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8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

First the why? I'm not happy with my flake stand having to turn off and on the water. The diameter is due to I want a freestanding shotgun. With distillate exiting out the side, much like a flake stand.

I would make it out of copper sheeting. 24" to 30" tall, haven't really thought about number or size of tubes. Something that large would be happy with half 1/2 or 3/4 I would think. The bottom would have a funnel shape draining into an 90 elbow. Then from the 90 exit out the side.

There isn't much talk of how to run/operate a shotgun. All I have found is basic principle and everyone loves them. I did read that stillstirring preferred the exit water temp to be around 120°.

Could I set and forget the water inlet? Without having to monkey with it the whole time I'm running.

Is a shotgun as sensitive with temperature gradient as a worm?

Will I have any trouble running something this large?

I don't like the idea of a condenser hanging in mid air. Or building a support arm hold the weight. Seems a freestanding design would be better. It seems to me an 8" shotgun would stand on it's own easier than 2".
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by still_stirrin »

How much power are you putting into the boiler? That would help design the size of the tube bank, both the number of vapor tubes and their required length. With an 8” shell, you will be able to put a number of vapor tubes inside, and a 24” tall condenser section is probably acceptable for a wide range of input power settings.

Things to consider are the vapor production rate (input power) because it affects the amount of vapor per unit of time produced that must be condensed. Also, this will somewhat dictate the cross sectional area for the vapor, ie - diameter of the lyne arm and total area of the tube bank cross sectional area. But since the speed of the vapor flow must be managed, the “dwell time” of the vapor contacting the tube bank walls determines the length of the tube bank. Ideally, you want to keep the vapor flow less than 20 feet per second to maximize heat transfer efficiency.

So, before I can help design your shotgun condenser, I need more info about your setup. If you don’t want to publish tis data in the thread, send me a PM and I’ll work offline with you.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:46 am How much power are you putting into the boiler? Currently I run 60-70,000 btu propane burner. I want Blichmann HellFire 140,000 btu

Also, this will somewhat dictate the cross sectional area for the vapor, ie - diameter of the lyne arm and total area of the tube bank cross sectional area. 3" tapered to 1" across 36" horizontal lyne arm. Then 90 down to 1" in/out thumper or directly into shotgun
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by still_stirrin »

SmokyMtn wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:18 am
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:46 am How much power are you putting into the boiler? Currently I run 60-70,000 btu propane burner. I want Blichmann HellFire 140,000 btu.

Also, this will somewhat dictate the cross sectional area for the vapor, ie - diameter of the lyne arm and total area of the tube bank cross sectional area. 3" tapered to 1" across 36" horizontal lyne arm. Then 90 down to 1" in/out thumper or directly into shotgun.
ss
OK.

Your “limiting factor” is the 1” line diameter. It will limit the production flow based upon vapor velocity.

If I could, I would suggest upsizing that to 2” OD, or 1-1/2” OD as a minimum. A 2” pipe has 4 times as much flow area as a 1” pipe. And a 1-1/2” pipe has 2.25 times as much flow area.

But, in lieu of boiler/lyne arm piping changes, I would build the shotgun with seven 3/4” OD pipes with a 24” long tube bank. You want a 24” long bank (18” minimum) to keep a temperature gradient inlet to outlet for the production stream. I also suggest building in a couple (maybe 3) internal baffles to make a “swirling motion” in the water jacket around the tube bank. That will help with performance.

I think that tube bank would easily fit inside a 6” diameter shell (maybe even a 4” diameter), so you wouldn’t need to go all the way to 8” diameter. An 8” diameter shell would hold a lot more water, making it heavier to lift and move, yet it would offer no advantage in cooling power with respect to the vapor tube bank. You simply don’t need that big of water jacket.

Now, you will still have to plumb cooling water in and out of the shotgun, as it is not the same as a flake. With the input power potential you have, you’ll need a good size reservoir if recirculating, especially if you have a large boiler. And certainly, once you’ve set the water flow rate to balance the vapor production, you probably wouldn’t need to adjust it again during the run.

Curious...did you get the notion for this solution from Mark & Digger’s recreation of Popcorn Sutton’s shotgun build? If you noticed, they fed their shotgun with a 2” pipe. The outlet pipe was 3/4”, I believe.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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No I started with twisted bricks shotgun post. Then thought why not make one that can sit on it's own. My idea was based on looks first, functionality second. I am simple minded, and don't have near the knowledge you have. So reasoning was if 2" and 3" work, an 8" should be great. But realize it doesn't always work like that. I really wanted a 12" to be somewhat comparable to the size of boiler and thumper. I know 12" would be excessive.

I have watched a few of the shows and met Digger. But never seen them use a condenser like this.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by Prairiepiss »

The purpose of a shotgun condenser is to put a lot of cooling power in a small package. Not make the biggest one you can.

For what you are talking about. You would just be better off making a sealed flake stand. Where you have a water inlet and outlet. Like a shotgun. And run water through it like you would a shotgun. But instead of many straight tubes you have one long coiled tube. Basically take your flake stand and put an inlet and outlet on the sides. And put a lid on it. Seal it up.
It would look the same as what you described. It would be a lot easier to make. It would work just as good. Nobody will ever see the inside of either. If you wanted to you could tell people it’s a shotgun condenser.

I personally see no reason to ever build a 12” shotgun condenser for a hobby still. Incredible waste of time money and copper. Even if it’s just for looks. Hell. Have a 3” shotgun condenser and I probably couldn’t build a still big enough to over power it.

Sometimes bigger isn’t alway better.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by Prairiepiss »

Sorry I don’t know why I typed 12” instead of 8”. They are equally ridiculously big.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

Thanks PP.

I had thought that might be an option. The flake stand I got now is a bucket with a hole cut out close to the top for overflow. My main complaint is having to fool with the water the whole time I'm running. I might try a gate valve instead of ball valve.

I dont have to have a shotgun. Just weighing options
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by RC Al »

SS why do we need to keep to 20ft/sec for every section of a pot still? You dont? It slows back down when you hit a larger diameter (like the top of a 8" shotty?)

Even inside the thumper the distibution would be a bigger factor than the feed pipe?
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

Can dimensions 9"x32". Cooling tubes are 3/4"ID x 24"L no baffles. 1" vapor in and 3/4" spirit out. Cooling water is 3/4" in/out. It was built by a local guy along with new still and thumper. Can't figure out how to flip the pics, but here ya go
1624562378837_image0.jpeg
20210624_155525.jpg
image2.jpeg
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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Those tubes don't need to be spaces that far apart. If you fit them closer together, you'll have better heat transfer.
I've ran my 100k btu burner wide open on a water run to test the knockdown power of my 2" shotgun. It get to a point that the velocity causes the condensed water to spit out the end rather than a stream.
You're never going to throw 140k btu at your hobby sized still. Even on a stripping run. You could easily make a 2" shotgun condenser and mount it on a stand to run vertically over a collection jar.
A union off the lyne arm to a 90° elbow, into the top of the shotty, and the output of the shotgun on the bottom.
Make a stand that will hold it, with space under out outflow reducer tall enough for a quart jar.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

Deplorable wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:58 pm Those tubes don't need to be spaces that far apart. If you fit them closer together, you'll have better heat transfer.
I've ran my 100k btu burner wide open on a water run to test the knockdown power of my 2" shotgun. It get to a point that the velocity causes the condensed water to spit out the end rather than a stream.
You're never going to throw 140k btu at your hobby sized still. Even on a stripping run. You could easily make a 2" shotgun condenser and mount it on a stand to run vertically over a collection jar.
A union off the lyne arm to a 90° elbow, into the top of the shotty, and the output of the shotgun on the bottom.
Make a stand that will hold it, with space under out outflow reducer tall enough for a quart jar.
Appreciate the input but I've already bought the one pictured. It was designed based on some of the input from the above participants. I just thought a follow-up with pictures might interest someone. The forum always has questions with no update or pictures.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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SmokyMtn wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:15 pm
Deplorable wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:58 pm Those tubes don't need to be spaces that far apart. If you fit them closer together, you'll have better heat transfer.
I've ran my 100k btu burner wide open on a water run to test the knockdown power of my 2" shotgun. It get to a point that the velocity causes the condensed water to spit out the end rather than a stream.
You're never going to throw 140k btu at your hobby sized still. Even on a stripping run. You could easily make a 2" shotgun condenser and mount it on a stand to run vertically over a collection jar.
A union off the lyne arm to a 90° elbow, into the top of the shotty, and the output of the shotgun on the bottom.
Make a stand that will hold it, with space under out outflow reducer tall enough for a quart jar.
Appreciate the input but I've already bought the one pictured. It was designed based on some of the input from the above participants. I just thought a follow-up with pictures might interest someone. The forum always has questions with no update or pictures.
Oh shit I didn't even look at the dated on the previous posts :oops:
So, since you have it I'm sure you update again once you get a run or two through it?
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:46 am How much power are you putting into the boiler? That would help design the size of the tube bank, both the number of vapor tubes and their required length. With an 8” shell, you will be able to put a number of vapor tubes inside, and a 24” tall condenser section is probably acceptable for a wide range of input power settings.

Things to consider are the vapor production rate (input power) because it affects the amount of vapor per unit of time produced that must be condensed. Also, this will somewhat dictate the cross sectional area for the vapor, ie - diameter of the lyne arm and total area of the tube bank cross sectional area. But since the speed of the vapor flow must be managed, the “dwell time” of the vapor contacting the tube bank walls determines the length of the tube bank. Ideally, you want to keep the vapor flow less than 20 feet per second to maximize heat transfer efficiency.

So, before I can help design your shotgun condenser, I need more info about your setup. If you don’t want to publish tis data in the thread, send me a PM and I’ll work offline with you.
ss
While you are at it can you explain some of the math. I feel confident in what I am planning but I am not sure of the math to prove it. I am building a standard 1/2 barrel keg, 5500 watt element, 6 in furrule on top, bowl reducer to 3 inch riser to a three to two reducer tee. From there an elbow to a the 2 inch shogun. Planning on 20 inches with 5 - 3/8 tubes. But my confidence in this is just what I have read others have built, no mathematical evidence.

Thanks.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by Twisted Brick »

SmokyMtn Shotgun.jpeg
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.
Very handsome condenser, SmokyMtn. Just curious: By chance is that your 'spirit out' tube about an inch or so above the bottom of your shell?
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

Yes sir. And thanks for the flip. I tried to rotate on my phone. Still ended up sideways
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

[/quote]
While you are at it can you explain some of the math. I feel confident in what I am planning but I am not sure of the math to prove it. I am building a standard 1/2 barrel keg, 5500 watt element, 6 in furrule on top, bowl reducer to 3 inch riser to a three to two reducer tee. From there an elbow to a the 2 inch shogun. Planning on 20 inches with 5 - 3/8 tubes. But my confidence in this is just what I have read others have built, no mathematical evidence.

Thanks.
[/quote]

If I were you, I would look at Twisted Bricks shotgun condenser. 4- 1/2" tubes would reduce the risk of grains stopping up the tubes if it ever puked on you.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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SmokyMtn wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:31 am
While you are at it can you explain some of the math. I feel confident in what I am planning but I am not sure of the math to prove it. I am building a standard 1/2 barrel keg, 5500 watt element, 6 in furrule on top, bowl reducer to 3 inch riser to a three to two reducer tee. From there an elbow to a the 2 inch shogun. Planning on 20 inches with 5 - 3/8 tubes. But my confidence in this is just what I have read others have built, no mathematical evidence.

Thanks.
[/quote]

If I were you, I would look at Twisted Bricks shotgun condenser. 4- 1/2" tubes would reduce the risk of grains stopping up the tubes if it ever puked on you.
[/quote]

+1
You won't overpower that shotgun with a 5,500w element, and the baffles make assembly and soldering a breeze. Even for a ham fisted ape like me.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by still_stirrin »

While you are at it can you explain some of the math.
Here’s a way:
Using the condenser sizing calculator on the parent site (https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/htm/calc ... d_calc.htm), you can get the length recommended for a Liebig condenser, which is a single vapor tube. Then divide by the number of vapor tubes you plan for in the shotgun.

And to determine the number and ID of the vapor tubes, from the diameter of the vapor outlet on the boiler (a 1/2 barrel keg is 2” = 3.14 square inches) you want the vapor tube bank to equal roughly the same area. So, using 1/2” ID pipes (approximately 0.196 sq.in. each), you’d need 3.14 / 0.196 = 16 tubes, beyond what you could fit into a 2”ID shell. So, as many as you can get into the tube bank would be best, with 4 as a minimum. If you’re careful, you may be able to “shoehorn” 6, or even 7 tubes into a 2” shell.

This will provide enough flow area to ensure there won’t be a restriction to the vapor flow, which would result in acceleration of the vapor and reduce the “dwell time” in contact with the vapor tube wall surfaces (through which the heat is conducted away). Note - heat transfer efficiency will be reduced if the vapor flow velocity is too fast, ie - 20 feet per second is nominally favored for our purpose.

Again, the shotgun length will be moderated by the number of vapor tubes in the tube bank, ie - more tubes —> shorter shotgun.

A note about the vapor tube calculator…I typically assume a conservative heat transfer constant (700 W/m2/*C) instead of the default 850. This will give you a safety margin for “knockdown power” in case you tend to run with higher power, like a stripping run, for example.

Another thing to consider when designing a shotgun (a tube & shell HeX) is the length of the tube bank section in contact with the coolant (water jacket). If it gets too short, the hysteresis (sensitivity to varying flow rates) will be pronounced. A longer tube bank will have a wider range of vapor flow rates it will successfully condense. Shorter, like a dephlegmator, has a narrower operational band for full reflux knockdown, although it can pass a high flow rate without creating a pressure drop in the flow regime.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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subbrew wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:10 pm
While you are at it can you explain some of the math. I feel confident in what I am planning but I am not sure of the math to prove it. I am building a standard 1/2 barrel keg, 5500 watt element, 6 in furrule on top, bowl reducer to 3 inch riser to a three to two reducer tee. From there an elbow to a the 2 inch shogun. Planning on 20 inches with 5 - 3/8 tubes. But my confidence in this is just what I have read others have built, no mathematical evidence.
Here's what I used when I configured my shotgun.

Shotgun & deph. tube & baffle design guidelines

BTW, the area of 4 x 1/2" Type M copper (1.12sq") represents a 26% increase over 5 x 3/8" copper (.886 sq"). 26% may not sound like much, but along with being closer to the ideal of 3.14 (to match your 2" vapor entry diameter), it would allow for a slightly (26%?) slower vapor speed and 4 tubes would be easier to pitch and build. In the thread above, Zapata managed 7 x 3/8" tubes in his 2" shell, which totals to 1.24 sq", a 10% increase in area over 4 x 1/2" tubes.
.
Copper Pipe area.png
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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Depending on vapor speed, the 2" vapor entry into the top of an 8" shotgun may very well allow for the vapor to shoot past the outer tubes to the point where the outer tubes are mostly ineffectual.

Attached is a picture that clearly illustrates how only a small portion of a large shotgun ( through tubes) are being utilized.
For optimal efficiency it is best to have vapor enter the side of your top peice in order to create more uniform vapor distribution by virtue of a turbulent entry. Or, stuff your PC cap with scrubber material to create a baffle effect. Again to promote more uniform vapor distribution.

Within reason, I do not believe an oversized PC is at all detrimental as some have implied. You'll conserve cooling media and insure adequate knockdown power at faster running speeds. You don't want your PC being the bottle neck if you want your system to have the widest operating range.
Now if you are trying to be a good steward of math and wish to calculate the smallest theoretical size for the sake of material costs, well then good on you.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by Twisted Brick »

.
I've been going over this in my head and trying to visualize what actually happens, but my concern of smearing is that the space on the bottom of the shell will collect distillate until it starts to exit via the 'distillate out' tube. The volume of a cylinder calculator indicates a circle 9" in diameter x 1" tall will hold one liter. (Is this correct? :crazy: )

I hope I am wrong on this, it's just that this video suggests smearing can happen in as little as 250ml and is what convinced me to stop using my parrot altogether.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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There will be more evident smearing on small kettle charges.
That's why some parrots have a dump valve.

If your parrot in not integrated onto the PC, make your heads cut, then place your parrot into position.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:29 am Depending on vapor speed, the 2" vapor entry into the top of an 8" shotgun may very well allow for the vapor to shoot past the outer tubes to the point where the outer tubes are mostly ineffectual.

Attached is a picture that clearly illustrates how only a small portion of a large shotgun ( through tubes) are being utilized.
For optimal efficiency it is best to have vapor enter the side of your top peice in order to create more uniform vapor distribution by virtue of a turbulent entry. Or, stuff your PC cap with scrubber material to create a baffle effect. Again to promote more uniform vapor distribution.

Within reason, I do not believe an oversized PC is at all detrimental as some have implied. You'll conserve cooling media and insure adequate knockdown power at faster running speeds. You don't want your PC being the bottle neck if you want your system to have the widest operating range.
Now if you are trying to be a good steward of math and wish to calculate the smallest theoretical size for the sake of material costs, well then good on you.

Resized_20180625_194022001_2803.jpeg
That picture is a very good eye opener. and your suggestion of the lyne arm entering the side of the cap is a great idea to cause the vapor to swirl in the top chamber as it enters the vapor tubes. I agree with TB that on the OP's example, the bottom plate needs to be shaped in such a way as to prevent pooling and direct all the condensate to the output, maybe there is, and there is just a flat bottom so the condenser sits flat on the bottom. I'd like to believe that any coppersmith fabricating one of these would know enough to not overlook that.

Done right, with a domed copper cap and proper placement of the lyne arm entrance this design would be a pretty effective alternative to a flake stand. Albeit more expensive to fabricate.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

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LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:29 am Within reason, I do not believe an oversized PC is at all detrimental as some have implied. You'll conservative cooling media and insure adequate knockdown power at faster running speeds. You don't want your PC being the bottle neck if you want your system to have the widest operating range.
Presently I prefer a slow, one and done method. (I know everyone is rolling their eyes). I average 145 starting proof with no thumper. And don't forsee me switching to strip/spirit runs. So speed right now is not a concern. I won't be pushing this setup to the limits.

My new still has a lyne arm 26" long, starts out 5" at cap and tapers to 1.5". Then 1.5" into the thumper, out is 1" into the shotgun. Bottom of shotgun is 3/4". It's all copper, 32oz boiler and cap. Thumper and shotgun are 20oz. It's built to last generations. And I got say it's a sexy piece of equipment.

I just picked it up Thursday and haven't done my cleaning runs yet. I have to order ptfe gaskets before running. Time will tell.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by LWTCS »

Deplorable wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:24 am
LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:29 am Depending on vapor speed, the 2" vapor entry into the top of an 8" shotgun may very well allow for the vapor to shoot past the outer tubes to the point where the outer tubes are mostly ineffectual.

Attached is a picture that clearly illustrates how only a small portion of a large shotgun ( through tubes) are being utilized.
For optimal efficiency it is best to have vapor enter the side of your top peice in order to create more uniform vapor distribution by virtue of a turbulent entry. Or, stuff your PC cap with scrubber material to create a baffle effect. Again to promote more uniform vapor distribution.

Within reason, I do not believe an oversized PC is at all detrimental as some have implied. You'll conserve cooling media and insure adequate knockdown power at faster running speeds. You don't want your PC being the bottle neck if you want your system to have the widest operating range.
Now if you are trying to be a good steward of math and wish to calculate the smallest theoretical size for the sake of material costs, well then good on you.

Resized_20180625_194022001_2803.jpeg
That picture is a very good eye opener. and your suggestion of the lyne arm entering the side of the cap is a great idea to cause the vapor to swirl in the top chamber as it enters the vapor tubes. I agree with TB that on the OP's example, the bottom plate needs to be shaped in such a way as to prevent pooling and direct all the condensate to the output, maybe there is, and there is just a flat bottom so the condenser sits flat on the bottom. I'd like to believe that any coppersmith fabricating one of these would know enough to not overlook that.

Done right, with a domed copper cap and proper placement of the lyne arm entrance this design would be a pretty effective alternative to a flake stand. Albeit more expensive to fabricate.
Yessir.
An even better peice of engineering would be a vapor side entry into a port that is installed tangentially. This absolutely ensures optimal, uniform vapor distribution.

I thought I had a 3D example in my phone gallery. I was wrong.
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SmokyMtn
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

Guys reread my initial post. The bottom of the shotgun, below the tubes has an internal funnel. Bottom of the funnel 90°s out the side of the shell. It won't pool if plumb and level.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by LWTCS »

SmokyMtn wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:27 am
LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:29 am Within reason, I do not believe an oversized PC is at all detrimental as some have implied. You'll conservative cooling media and insure adequate knockdown power at faster running speeds. You don't want your PC being the bottle neck if you want your system to have the widest operating range.
Presently I prefer a slow, one and done method. (I know everyone is rolling their eyes). I average 145 starting proof with no thumper. And don't forsee me switching to strip/spirit runs. So speed right now is not a concern. I won't be pushing this setup to the limits.
Nothing wrong with that at all.
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by Twisted Brick »

SmokyMtn wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:56 am The bottom would have a funnel shape draining into an 90 elbow. Then from the 90 exit out the side.
I totally missed that. My apologies. Duh!

32oz copper boiler! That is some serious heft. Nuthin' sexier than an all-copper still, IMO. Looking forward to seeing pics of it all set up and producing.
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SmokyMtn
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Re: 8 inch shotgun questions

Post by SmokyMtn »

I'm guilty of skimming through a thread as well :thumbup:
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