My 2" shotgun

Anything cooling/condenser related.

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Fuggles
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My 2" shotgun

Post by Fuggles »

Assembling my shotgun I hit a bit of a wall assembling it.
shotgun800.jpg
I brazed copper plates to the SS ferrules and soldered vapor tubes into one of them.
shotgun_end800.jpg
I inserted the vapor tubes and tried soldering the ferrule to the shell but the gaps were too big. Took it apart cleaned it up and tried brazing but my MAPP torch isn't hot enough. What are my options now, hotter torch like oxy-mapp? TIG, which I would need to buy or borrow and learn to use? Would it be deplorable to use JB-Weld? It can handle the heat and it's not in the vapor path but I hope there's a better option out there. Thanks for any advice.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Deplorable »

Christ that's a long shotgun.
I had a fit with one end of mine not sealing the ferrule to the water jacket. I took a different approach in assembly though.
I assembled the tube stack, made a ring of 1/8 solder same as the ID of the jacket, inserted it and placed the ferrule in the jacket and ferrule, heated very slowly and evenly until the solder just began to flow and removed the heat. Let that cool. Inserted the tube stack, and made another solder ring and place it against the end of the tube stack. Install the ferrule and heat until the solder just begins to flow and stop. Walk way and let it cool slowly.
This is the end that leaked. I fought the bastard for 3 hours before I was able to get the pinhole between the end baffle and the jacket to seal.
Here is what Id do different
Make sure your end plates hold water under a few psi
before you solder your ferrules in place. Then, make and place your solder rings, preheat your ferrule, flux it, and the jacket, now place the ferrule and heat slowly until the solder flows. Remove the heat and let it cool slowly on its own.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by still_stirrin »

Fuggles (like the hops variety, right?),

I use a MAPP + O2 torch (available from the big box stores here in the USA).


It has a needle point and you can adjust the mixture to get a really hot point. It works great to “flow” the solder around your joint. And since the heat is so focused, it won’t melt solder away from where you’re trying to melt it.

Buy a couple of the O2 bottles because you’ll go through those quicker than the MAPP bottles. But they aren’t too expensive.

The proper tools, while an investment, are necessary if you want to do your own building. But, tools are always good to have, especially specialized tools for specialized duty, like a pin-point oxy-MAPP torch.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Twisted Brick »

Fuggles wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:52 am Assembling my shotgun I hit a bit of a wall assembling it.

I inserted the vapor tubes and tried soldering the ferrule to the shell but the gaps were too big.
Was the ferrule loose in the shell before you attached the end plate?

Harris makes a 6% silver solder (Stay-Brite 8 - what I use) purportedly better at filling gaps. If your gap is larger than that you will need to fill it with something solid, like copper. For fittings, standard pipe works well (pic). In your case, wrap loops of whatever gauge copper wire will fit best around the ferrule and tin it prior to inserting and finish soldering.

While JB-weld is tolerant of up to 250F(?), I'm not sure it would hold up to the repeated thermal cycling.

Like Deplorable said, that's a hella long condenser. You get diminishing returns after 19-20" in length and have to deal with the extra coolant weight of a loaded shotgun. Love all those baffles!
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Bushman »

I also have a long shotgun product condenser on my 4” and I only need a small amount of water to run it.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Bushman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:01 am I also have a long shotgun product condenser on my 4” and I only need a small amount of water to run it.
I an consider a needle valve, and reducing the hose size on my 20 inch from 1/2 inch to 1/4. I'm barely cracking the 1/2 inch gate valve on my manifold and producing a trickle in the output side. Any more water than that and the distillate is too cold and I have to adjust for it on my hydrometer readings, but im only running a 2 inch still.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:37 am Was the ferrule loose in the shell before you attached the end plate?
The ferrule is certainly loose. Just measuring now my 2” pipe is DWV with ID 2.040”. Ferrule is OD 2.002”. Makes for .019” all the way around which must be why solder was an epic fail. I like the idea of filler a especially since my Home Depot is on lock down. I'll see what I can find for wire. Using this approach will I be ok with my map torch, or should I be getting the oxy-mapp? I can probably borrow it.

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:37 am Like Deplorable said, that's a hella long condenser. You get diminishing returns after 19-20" in length and have to deal with the extra coolant weight of a loaded shotgun. Love all those baffles!
I thought overkill was good but I didn't think of the weight of the coolant! The tubes are all soldered together but I could lop 4 or 8” off with a hack saw. Worth it? Here's my setup so far with 5500W. A bit of distortion in the photo, that's 4-3 out of the keg, 3" over and back down, then 3-2 to this shotgun.
setup800.jpg
I'm planning an extension in 3” copper just above the 4-3 reducer, and a stand to make room for the bottom center flipped keg drain valve. I'll have a similar issue with that ferrule being loose when I get to that.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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still_stirrin wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:14 am Fuggles (like the hops variety, right?),
You got it. Long time brewer, just barely getting started and learning a lot here.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Ah, DWV! That explains it! Just go the wire route and solder will work fine. If it were me, it would be worth it to disassemble the pieces and start over. Cut the vapor tubes down to 18-19" and realign the baffles. Insert tube array into your shell and solder both end plates and do a leak/pressure test prior to soldering the ferrules in. You'll also want to ensure the tubes on the vapor input end don't protrude past the end plate and cause pooling/smearing.

I like your still config (I run a 3" pot too). A length of 3" copper riser will be nice for your spirit and certainly enhance your takeoff position. The limiting factor in your takeoff speed will be the amount of power you can put into it.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Deplorable »

DWV? I'd have never guessed you used the thin wall pipe.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Deplorable »

Since you're planning a copper riser, follow TBs advice and shorten your PC. Can you use the peice you cut off as sacrificial copper for your shims?
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Deplorable »

Since you're planning a copper riser, follow TBs advice and shorten your PC. Maybe practice by making a short 2" diameter spool from the cut off?
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Deplorable wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:17 pm Since you're planning a copper riser, follow TBs advice and shorten your PC. Can you use the peice you cut off as sacrificial copper for your shims?
Could only find type M in 12' lengths from plumbing supply, and super expensive. I was ready to give up when I found the DWV in 6' length at an independent hardware store. My 3" riser and any future column I might build will also be of DWV. Is thin wall an issue at all? It's still 0.040" and I need more like 0.015 to 0.018" for the shim.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:26 pm If it were me, it would be worth it to disassemble the pieces and start over.
Thanks TB. Always worth it to take a step back and consider things. Honestly this is a build is a stretch for my skills but it's as much about the journey as anything. Great fun!
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Fuggles »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:26 pm Cut the vapor tubes down to 18-19" and realign the baffles. Insert tube array into your shell and solder both end plates and do a leak/pressure test prior to soldering the ferrules in. You'll also want to ensure the tubes on the vapor input end don't protrude past the end plate and cause pooling/smearing.
Just reading this over carefully. My approach is different and may cause me problems. I first brazed the plate to the ferrule, like so.
brazedferrule800.jpg
At the time my concern was that I couldn't cut my plates accurately enough to solder them into the shell, since I drilled the 4 holes with a template and then hand cut the plate with snips. My problem will be that the last ferule and tubes all have to be soldered in one go. Sounds like I need to make 2 new, accurate plates. I'll cut them big and then grind them down. I'll order new short ferrules as well.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Twisted Brick »

First off - kudos to you for attempting a shotgun build with emerging soldering skills. I built my still/shotgun with absolutely no prior soldering experience and it turned out fine. Second, I have Type l copper in my riser, but used DWV 90's on my stillhead and love 'em cuz they're lightweight and still sturdy.

I know my endplates are flanged, but maybe you don't have to solder everything in one go. In the pic below of the shotgun I built last week, I soldered the vapor tubes into the endplate and once cooled, soldered the endplate into the shell. I soldered the ferrule into the shell in a separate operation, with terrycloth 'plugs' stuffed into each vapor tube to keep the endplate from getting hot.

Maybe you could try this: Recut your endplate larger, and solder the vapor tubes in. Then solder the endplate into the shell like I did. After you have tinned your copper wire around your ferrule barrel, slide it into the shell and carefully heat up the copper around the waist of the barrel, halfway up the ferrule. This will draw the solder up the sides as you feed it between the shell and the ferrule flange. It would be a bonus if you position/solder the endplate so that the ferrule butts up against it when you go to solder it in. By pre-flattening your solder with a hammer, you make it thin and you don't have to heat your copper so hot to get it to melt. Hopefully this approach doesn't disturb your endplate join.

I hope that made sense?
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Great tips TB, thanks for the details. I've seen your pressed plates in other threads they look great. Very nice work. I'll definitely shorten down to 18" to 20", just haven't decided between full disassembly/new end plates vs. a hail mary with my current approach. I'll report back when I find a few hours to work on it.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Sailman »

I made my condenser just like Twisted Brick suggests, you can't go wrong following his directions.
IMG_20200401_154515.jpg
IMG_20200331_103044.jpg
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Sailman wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:52 pm I made my condenser just like Twisted Brick suggests, you can't go wrong following his directions.
Very pretty Sailman, thanks for sharing! I just have this fear that my hand cut plates will be very difficult to solder into a tube. The cut is inaccurate and there's no flare to hold the solder near the tube. I've seen molten solder dribble away through a tiny hole when I was attaching ferrule to to keg. Brazing fixed that for me, which led me to this approach. I'm not in a hurry, this is all a big experiment! I'll get 'er done one way or another.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Yummyrum »

Fuggles , You can use a LPG gas burner to preheat the condenser . Then once its hot , the MAPP will have enough heat to o the Brazing . I used it on both my 2.5” PC and 4” deflag
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Fuggles wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:16 am I'll definitely shorten down to 18" to 20", just haven't decided between full disassembly/new end plates vs. a hail mary with my current approach. I'll report back when I find a few hours to work on it.
Thought I would mention that you will want to keep your vapor tubes flush with the end plate on the vapor input side. This will eliminate condensate pooling and smearing throughout your run. Maybe use a hand-grinder before you install the (tube-loaded) endplate?
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Twisted Brick wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:55 pm Thought I would mention that you will want to keep your vapor tubes flush with the end plate on the vapor input side. This will eliminate condensate pooling and smearing throughout your run. Maybe use a hand-grinder before you install the (tube-loaded) endplate?
Will do, thanks TB. The new year got me busy at work so I've set this project aside for now. Hope to get back to it soon!

Thanks for the link Yummyrum. That's what I love about this place. You guys are hard core.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Twisted Brick wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:55 pm
Fuggles wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:16 am I'll definitely shorten down to 18" to 20", just haven't decided between full disassembly/new end plates vs. a hail mary with my current approach. I'll report back when I find a few hours to work on it.
Thought I would mention that you will want to keep your vapor tubes flush with the end plate on the vapor input side. This will eliminate condensate pooling and smearing throughout your run. Maybe use a hand-grinder before you install the (tube-loaded) endplate?
A 3/4” or larger counter sync bit also works well bringing down the pipe flush with the end plate. Otis
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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A few more pics now that I got my shotgun water tight. Since I last posted I shortened to 19". My attempt to wire wrap and solder the ferrule to fit in the DWV failed so I brazed it on. After that I was able to solder the tubes in. Both ends seem to hold some water pressure without squirting. I didn't test it at full tap pressure since the pipe is only DVW.


The full assembly. The 2" port was going to be an element hole before I decided to flip the keg. Now I'll just try using it as a fill port.
assembled.jpg
assembled.jpg (43.83 KiB) Viewed 2997 times

The bad end.
vapor out.jpg
vapor out.jpg (49.64 KiB) Viewed 2997 times

The nicer end for vapor input. Tried hard to get the ends flush. My only reservation now is a blob of solder stuck to the inside of one tube.
vapor in.jpg
vapor in.jpg (46.56 KiB) Viewed 2997 times

Next up is a 3" copper riser to get some copper in the vapor path and to get some clearance at the output. I'm thinking 12" of rise but interested in any suggestions. I could go up to 20" before I run into problems fitting it all under my exhaust hood.
clearance.jpg
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Re: My 2" shotgun

Post by Deplorable »

Keep in mind that it doesn't have to point straight down. Articulate the two 90s so you can raise the output of the shotgun above your collection vessel. As long as it has a downward slope, and the distillate doesn't pool in the end reducer when installed you'll be fine. Like this.
20210516_131321.jpg
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Deplorable wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:11 am Keep in mind that it doesn't have to point straight down. Articulate the two 90s so you can raise the output of the shotgun above your collection vessel. As long as it has a downward slope, and the distillate doesn't pool in the end reducer when installed you'll be fine. Like this.
20210516_131321.jpg
+1

Run at an angle, you'll want to remember to orient your shotty so you have one vapor tube straight down at "six o'clock' to minimize any collection and smearing.

Great job on re-sizing your shotty and making the DWV work. At the pressures we incur during stilling, there's no harm in running DWV.

You're gonna love the speed of 3" through your shotgun. I cheated on my pot by combining my reflux condenser spool with my sight glass from my CCVM for the collection height I wanted.
New stillhead JPG.jpg
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Twisted Brick wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:27 am
Deplorable wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:11 am Keep in mind that it doesn't have to point straight down. Articulate the two 90s so you can raise the output of the shotgun above your collection vessel. As long as it has a downward slope, and the distillate doesn't pool in the end reducer when installed you'll be fine. Like this.
20210516_131321.jpg
+1

Run at an angle, you'll want to remember to orient your shotty so you have one vapor tube straight down at "six o'clock' to minimize any collection and smearing.

Great job on re-sizing your shotty and making the DWV work. At the pressures we incur during stilling, there's no harm in running DWV.

You're gonna love the speed of 3" through your shotgun. I cheated on my pot by combining my reflux condenser spool with my sight glass from my CCVM for the collection height I wanted.

New stillhead JPG.jpg
Putting a ferrule on the other end of my reflux condenser housing is still on my list of things to do so I can do the same thing.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Twisted Brick wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:27 am Great job on re-sizing your shotty and making the DWV work. At the pressures we incur during stilling, there's no harm in running DWV.

You're gonna love the speed of 3" through your shotgun. I cheated on my pot by combining my reflux condenser spool with my sight glass from my CCVM for the collection height I wanted.

Thanks TB. I'll plan to run at an angle and 6 o'clock makes sense. I'll sort out my collecting spout and placement of things in general before deciding on my riser height.

With the DWV I was only concerned about water pressure in the shell. I'll be sure to valve the cooling water only at the input side. Is the DWV really only rated for 15psi? I read that somewhere.

Nice setup. I love those 3" copper elbows. I just couldn't find a source for that.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Fuggles wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:09 am
Nice setup. I love those 3" copper elbows. I just couldn't find a source for that.
Thanks. I've been eyeing that long-radius 90 for a couple years and finally pulled the trigger six months ago. Interesting thing happened when I ran it for the first time. My strip run just didn't feel the same as the the old pot head orientation (horizontal) and I concluded it had to be because the 3x2" reducer was re-oriented vertically and reduced the amount of passive reflux it created. Just a guess tho.
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Re: My 2" shotgun

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Just posting some progress. After some failed attempts I got the ferrules attached to the 3" DWV. What worked in the end was brazing the wire wrap onto the ferrule, grinding it down to a snug fit, and then soldering
ferrule800.jpg
Here's the full assembly minus cooling lines.
still800.jpg
I so far gave it a good scrub and ran some water. Exciting!
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