Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

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Andrew_90
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Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Andrew_90 »

So lets for a moment discount those who have large tanks for cooling purposes.

Yesterday I ran two stripping runs of equal size in the same still to prove a point.

The first run was using a 50l tank and recirculating the water to the Liebig with a submersible pump. During the 90 minute stripping run id was necessary for me to replace at least half with fresh cold water no fewer than 4 times. This means that I started with 50l and, drained at least 100l which was refilled. So my total consumption was a minimum of 100l and I was left with the original 50l in the tank that could cool and be used again.

The second run was the following day expect this time I connected to a continuous fresh water supply and allowed the water to waste down the drain. During the process I measure the flow rate and it was 5l for every 7 minutes. The run duration was 90 minutes so 90/7*5 = 64l.

So my conclusions thus far are.

1. Small cooling tanks are inefficient as they do not have the thermal mass of a larger tanks, larger tanks would warm up but would not get hot during the duration of the run.
2. Without some form of intercooler, smaller cooling tanks are not that practical.
3. In the absence of and intercooler, reusable ice blocks can be employed to attenuate the temperature rise.
4. Without ice or an intercooler is it cheaper and more convenient to run to waste and an overall saving of 36l is achieved.

I have numerous 1.5l bottles filled with water in the freezer to conduct the next phase of the experiment. This would be a 50l tanks with cooling ice.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Expat »

Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Yummyrum »

Well unless I missed it , you did not say how much was in the boiler that you were stripping…. That’s kind of important .

Now heres some interesting stuff . ..from my observations :ewink:
If you had , say a 50 litre boiler full you were stripping . Then , you then had another 50 litre drum full of the same wash ( Hmm pre- heater …. Look that up)
and used that to cool the first strip , it would be starting to give off vapour … IE … its steam’n pretty close to when you would call it quites on the stripping run . … but not quite …. And the strip would be coming out almost not quite fully condensed .


A pretty safe rule of thumb that you need about 2x the volume of water to adequately condense the volume in the stripper pot with a bit up your sleeve

Go look at those worm in a flake stand . So long as flake can hold a fair bit more than boiler , its going to cope . :thumbup:

Reflux still situation is a whole different game .
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Andrew_90 »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:28 am Well unless I missed it , you did not say how much was in the boiler that you were stripping…. That’s kind of important .
22l in a 30l boiler set up as pot still.
Reflux still situation is a whole different game.
Better or worse?
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Andrew_90 »

Expat wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
Curiously we are charged twice for water, once for removing it from the tap and again the same amount for flushing it down the drain.

I actually take a long hose and move it about the lawn.

It was a "curiosity" exercise as I may wish in future to build a cooling supply with heat exchanger ...... just 'cause I can.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by still_stirrin »

Andrew, use the “waste heat” to warm your swimming pool or keep your fish pond from freezing.

There are many potential solutions to “recycle” the waste heat. A boiler charge pre-heater certainly is one good option. If you’re paying for the electricity once to heat your boiler, it makes sense to do something more with the heat you recover from the reflux and product condensers.

Perhaps, warm the bathtub for your spouse….
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Andrew - That's common. Since there is no meter on your entry to the sanitary sewer, you will always be charged for the same amount of gallons that came through the incoming meter. So far as I know, they only way to avoid the secondary waste charge is to tell the water department that you're filling a pool. Not ideal.

Many folks run an extra long hose back to their washing machine, or fill a rain barrel, to make the best use of the waste.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Yummyrum »

Andrew_90 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:54 am
Yummyrum wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:28 am Reflux still situation is a whole different game.
Better or worse?
Much worse .
Because you are refluxing .

Say you are using a 9:1 reflux ratio ( quite possibly more if you are aiming for azeo), for every litre of product you condense , the reflux condenser has had to handle another 9 .

Getting back to your stripping run , I suspect you might be running the water just a little too fast through the condenser . If the condenser can handle the power , it should typically only need a trickle of water . It will be so hot you can’t hold your hand under it .

You only need enough coolant flow to condense the distillate . Any more is waste for sure .

Having said that , 63 litres to condense 22 litres of wash isn’t too far off the mark .
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by CaptMorgan »

Andrew_90,

My experience recirculating water used for cooling is quite the opposite of yours. First a little background, I run my reflux still on propane in my shed. I have neighbors very close to the shed which is also visible from the road. While running my still early one morning, I opened the door to see a sheriff cruiser sitting a mere 25 meters away. Distilling is not legal in the U.S. Luckily, the deputy did not see me, but it sure caused me some serious stress!

The last spirit run I did was when the outside temp was about 3C. I have a 50 liter tote full of water that started out at 5C. I use a 2500L/hour pond pump to circulate my water through my bokakob’s reflux coil that is 6mm copper tubing that is 23 cm long. My column is 54 cm x 96 cm high with 60 cm packed with copper mesh. I use a valve on the output line of my coil to regulate flow to keep the cooling water outlet about 43-49C. My cooling water flow during my spirit run was a mere trickle of 11.5 L/hour. After the water goes through the reflux coil, I run it through a radiator with a fan blowing through it as I posted here:

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 87&t=82941

The radiator drops the temp of the water by about 24C. It was something I found and did not cost me anything except some PVC pipe and fittings to make a stand to hold it at the same level as the tote and some tubing for routing the water lines.

My spirit run was 11.9 liters of low wines diluted with 11.3 liters of distilled water. It took 6 hours and the temp inside the shed was about 13C. I never added any water and the tote water only reached about 15C at the end of the run. Before I started using the radiator, the water in the tote would typically hit 32-35C before adding more water. If it was more convenient to just dump my water, I would. By recirculating, I reduce the chances of someone seeing me. It also keeps me from making a muddy mess since the area where my shed is located is low anyway. Water is also pretty expensive where live, so any cost savings is a good thing.

As Yummyrum said, refluxing only adds more thermal load.

After seeing how quickly you are able to strip 25 liters on a pot still, I will soon be building a pot still head. Thanks for the inspiration!
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by DRHillier »

Andrew_90 I also recirculate my cooling water, I run it through a transmission cooler similar to yours. I use a squirrel cage fan to blow through it. I have similar results to yours. I have to change my water out a few times through the run. I've considered ice bottles but have a feeling that they would melt pretty fast. I've been kicking around an idea though. A second tub of water to sink my condenser in with ice bottles in it. I wouldn't save any water since I'd end up using twice the water in the beginning, but I might cut back on having to change the water out during the run. Also been thinking about a shower head coming out of the condenser to create some heat transfer using ambient air cooling by suspending the shower head a couple feet over the water tub. It's really an exercise in futility, but it's still fun to play around with just to see what kind of results you can get.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Expat wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
+1
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

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WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:03 pm
Expat wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
+1
I'm on a well. Water is free Aside from the cost to pump it out of the ground. I run outside with a propane burner for the most part, but have the ability to run on the stove if i wanted to. I'm not interested in saving water, I'm more interested in the challenge of using as little resources as possible and still accomplish my goal. I could easily hook my hose up and be done with it, but I don't see the challenge in that. The efficient condenser i do not have. I'm using a worm, and it's a crap one at that. I'm close to building a bokakob still so I'm not to interested in making a better worm. Just gonna keep using my junk still until I get the boka built.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by EricTheRed »

Get a storage tank large enough to hold your outflow
Use it to feed your garden, toilets, wash the car, whatever.
As long as you are using it twice, good stuff.

If you're running enough runs, you could even reuse it for cooling again, just add a bit of chlorine to it. Oh wait....that's a pool!
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Oatmeal »

*edit* To add to yummyrum's excellent informative post on balancing heating and cooling volumes *end edit*

If you want to be really efficient check out the armagnac still

download.jpeg
download.jpeg (10.59 KiB) Viewed 1515 times
Without the continuous aspect you would use the next strip to chill the first with a wash pre-heater. Like NZchris goes on about!
Last edited by Oatmeal on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by Dancing4dan »

I use a 45 gallon reservoir and a pond pump. The addition of a finned cooler in the return line would be pretty easy to cobble together. I like the idea. Could help keep me warm…

This time of year running water outside can be a problem….
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

DRHillier wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:11 pm
WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:03 pm
Expat wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
+1
I'm on a well. Water is free Aside from the cost to pump it out of the ground. I run outside with a propane burner for the most part, but have the ability to run on the stove if i wanted to. I'm not interested in saving water, I'm more interested in the challenge of using as little resources as possible and still accomplish my goal. I could easily hook my hose up and be done with it, but I don't see the challenge in that. The efficient condenser i do not have. I'm using a worm, and it's a crap one at that. I'm close to building a bokakob still so I'm not to interested in making a better worm. Just gonna keep using my junk still until I get the boka built.
Tinkering / designing / engineering solutions is a fun part of this hobby. There are some very cool designs on this site to cool the water before returning it to the reservoir. Some are so good they can keep water temp consistent throughout the run which is important for reflux runs. I am not sure it would be less drain on "resources" if you factor everything in depending on what you include on your list of "resources".

If using a boka (or any reflux column), you' might want to look into some of the solutions I mentioned to methodically cool the water coming from the condensers before returning to the reservoir. Having a consistent temp really helps you dial in your reflux column.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by DRHillier »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:52 pm
DRHillier wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:11 pm
WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:03 pm
Expat wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
+1
I'm on a well. Water is free Aside from the cost to pump it out of the ground. I run outside with a propane burner for the most part, but have the ability to run on the stove if i wanted to. I'm not interested in saving water, I'm more interested in the challenge of using as little resources as possible and still accomplish my goal. I could easily hook my hose up and be done with it, but I don't see the challenge in that. The efficient condenser i do not have. I'm using a worm, and it's a crap one at that. I'm close to building a bokakob still so I'm not to interested in making a better worm. Just gonna keep using my junk still until I get the boka built.
Tinkering / designing / engineering solutions is a fun part of this hobby. There are some very cool designs on this site to cool the water before returning it to the reservoir. Some are so good they can keep water temp consistent throughout the run which is important for reflux runs. I am not sure it would be less drain on "resources" if you factor everything in depending on what you include on your list of "resources".

If using a boka (or any reflux column), you' might want to look into some of the solutions I mentioned to methodically cool the water coming from the condensers before returning to the reservoir. Having a consistent temp really helps you dial in your reflux column.
Oh for sure. When I build the boka, all the tinkering I've been doing will go right out the window. Management will be the new thing to learn. Learning water flow will be my main focus. Until I find the milk jug boiler at a decent price though, I'm stuck with my vevor Chinese made pot still. It keeps me endurance m entertained for now, but I want to build something better. And then I'm sure there'll be another build i want to try, then another etc etc etc. I'm excited to get it started!!
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by NZChris »

Heat rises.

If you put the hot return water gently on top of the reservoir with little mixing and draw the cooling water from the bottom, the water won't rise in temperature until the hot layer gets reaches the outlet. When/if that happens, add cold water to the bottom and overflow hot water from the top.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by The Baker »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:03 pm
Expat wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am Unless water is expensive where you live, and assuming you have a good supply there's really no reason to reuse water.

I built efficient condensers and the hot water goes down the drain. Water cost is less than the electricity to heat the still, which ain't much.
+1
I have an over-engineered condenser so the low flow of used cooling water goes on the garden.
None is wasted as we still need to water the garden, unless it is raining.

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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by SteveH1960 »

I use a 1000ltr ibc. If it’s full I recirculate it, if it’s down I use town water and run the cooling water into the ibc. The wife pumps from it to water the veggie garden.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by NZChris »

The Baker wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:00 pm I have an over-engineered condenser so the low flow of used cooling water goes on the garden.
None is wasted as we still need to water the garden, unless it is raining.

Geoff
My Liebigs are so efficient that the waste water is hot enough to kill my weeds.
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Re: Cooling Water - Recirculate or Waste Experiment

Post by The Baker »

NZChris wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:40 pm
The Baker wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:00 pm I have an over-engineered condenser so the low flow of used cooling water goes on the garden.
None is wasted as we still need to water the garden, unless it is raining.

Geoff
My Liebigs are so efficient that the waste water is hot enough to kill my weeds.
Likewise.
I run the water a bit faster so as not to kill the lawn.

Geoff
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