Dephlegmators

Anything cooling/condenser related.

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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by olddog »

Usge wrote:Are you feeding the dephleg at the top and also exit/output/drain at top? ) Or does the "in" tube go all the way down to the bottom? ie, through the laminar fins,vapor area etc., down into the dephlegm..to the very bottom?
Yes both the input and output are on the top of the column
DEPHLAG ASSEMBLY.png
As you said the feed / exit tubes pass through the fins.
Contrary to others opinions I feed the coolant to the bottom of the dephlegmater, I find this makes changes to dephlegmater temps more instant and controllable.


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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Kentucky shinner »

I switched to a 4 tube shotgun long ago and find is responds much better than the 12 tube I originally designed. I feed from the bottom and drain from the top. I do not use a valve on the drain valve on the dephlagamater. I only use a drain on the pressure bypass. It does take a few minutes for the change to occur. I use a 90 on the inside of the feed tube pointing down so the water enters on the bottom of the dephagamater.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Thanks OD. That's clear. Given the way things are at this point, I'm pretty sure I'll end up doing the older config (since I've already ordered the parts, etc). Can always experiment with which I/O works better (ie., top/bottom). Hell, I've got "3" options now!! (that I've put a 3rd nipple on it). May have to cap that one. Oops. And thanks too KS! Yes...at some point....I've got to give up the coyote and get this thing workin :D
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

Kentucky shinner wrote:I run mine strait off the spicket and i have a pump that I use to recirculate at times. I have a valve on my drain line also that I can close up if needed to make sure I get the water flow through the dephlagamater, but still allow water through the drain also. This way you always get 100% flow through the product condenser. I dont know for shure if this is the same problem your talking about but it works great with my set up.
KS
I run mine straight off a hose as well. Very little pressure at this low of flow. After seeing your video KS, I realize that I have larger lines in and out of my dephlag. Probably why I had a hard time managing my head temps. I will put a simple reducer on the dephlag exit line to create a little back pressure and slow down the flow. Maybe I will be able to stay with the ball valve instead of changing to a gate valve.
This issue seems to be the only real thing to conquer with my flute learning curve.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by HeadCase »

Usge wrote:I figure what's the worse that can happen?
BOOM!

That's what could happen... :lol:
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by LWTCS »

HeadCase wrote:BOOM!

That's what could happen...
Tah Usge?????

Naw.
Not a commensurate example of worst case scenarios. We're talkin dephlegmaters here.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

I think he was referring to the Coyote :)
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

have you ran it again after changes Usge?
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Not yet MR. I just got all my parts...redoing it this weekend. I'm nixing the liebig for a shotgun product condenser to run my valves/manifold off of — that's the major part of the mod/work. Only problem is...I'm not sure if 14" of 1" pipe (with 1/8 tubes) is gonna work. May need to get bigger tube. Scale wise...it would be the same as running a fourteen inch long 2" product condenser on the 4" flutes. I'll know more by this weekend. I should have it up and running by then...at least for test runs. I'm not wasting my good low-wines on it yet until I'm satisfied with test runs that its working. (got 3 gals of 5 gen UJSM low-wines and 15 gals of corn/barley/sugar finishing up.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by HeadCase »

Usge wrote:I think he was referring to the Coyote :)
I was on Pg 1 and didn't want to lose the though process so I posted. Heh... Game on!
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Ah, Headcase ...you got experience with exploding condensors? :wtf:
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

Usge wrote:Not yet MR. I just got all my parts...redoing it this weekend. I'm nixing the liebig for a shotgun product condenser to run my valves/manifold off of — that's the major part of the mod/work. Only problem is...I'm not sure if 14" of 1" pipe (with 1/8 tubes) is gonna work. May need to get bigger tube. Scale wise...it would be the same as running a fourteen inch long 2" product condenser on the 4" flutes. I'll know more by this weekend. I should have it up and running by then...at least for test runs. I'm not wasting my good low-wines on it yet until I'm satisfied with test runs that its working. (got 3 gals of 5 gen UJSM low-wines and 15 gals of corn/barley/sugar finishing up.
Wasn’t your problem controlling the dephlag temp on your test run?? I am sorry if I have missed something. Why are you changing the product condenser?
How many 1/8 inch tubes can you get inide the 1inch? Are using 1"- 1/2" reducers with a 1inch exterior jacket? That sounds like a small shotgun. It might require more coolant flow to knock down the vapor. I am curious to know how that works. Been folowing your build, wishing you the best.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by rad14701 »

1/8" is too small of a diameter for our use... 1/4" is the smallest size suitable for a whetted surface with moving vapor... "Maybe" 3/16" if you could find it, but I'd stick with 1/4"...
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by LWTCS »

MR,
Unless I am reading incorrectly, U. is attempting to calibrate the size of his product condenser so that it will feed his deeflag a warmer amount of coolant.
Or at least that consideration is part of his over all attempt to get familiar with the multiple approaches used here and about.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

LWTCS wrote:MR,
Unless I am reading incorrectly, U. is attempting to calibrate the size of his product condenser so that it will feed his deeflag a warmer amount of coolant.
Or at least that consideration is part of his over all attempt to get familiar with the multiple approaches used here and about.

it seems that would complicate the process even further. Wouldnt it be easier to slow the water flow to the dephlag? it seems to me that if a dephlag is too large it would still work if you can acuratley control the flow of coolant. It would just take longer to heat up.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

My problem at first coming straight off the tap to the bottom, draining out the top, was that I could not flow "any"thing to the dephlegm without it just stopping vapor. I had to just shut the vapor off until it started to flow..and then trying to adjust it from tap...was an excercise in frustration. Next was to just try taking the output from the liebig so it would be pre-heated...and adjusting flow via the liebig/input. That worked a "little" better in that I actually got some flow to dephleg and product dripping...but to get it beyond a "drip", I had to turn the water flow down too low for the liebig.

Next was to use a "T" in the lines from the output of the liebig and add a needle valve on the bottom of dphelg as "input". This in theory would allow me to control how much water was going to the dephleg..and still flow what I needed to my liebig/product condensor...and any excess would flow off the other side of the T. That was the theory. In practice, because of Bernoulli's principal/law...the water "always" flowed away from the dephleg side of the T. It was suggested that the T be moved above the dephleg...and below the dephleg. I tried both...none worked. The water would always flow away from the dephleg..leaving it starved for water. Almost as to defy physics (but in fact following the laws precisely), EVEN if you pinched shut the drain side of the T...it would not change the issue.
The water would just barley peak towards the dephleg...but be sizzling away trying to escape out the other side.

So, that's when I tried the latest...which was to use the bottom nipple of the dephleg as "output", add a 3rd nipple just below the top one...and use that for input, the very top for drainning off any excess pressure. I tested it by just running cold water through it. It worked..in that the water when where I wanted it, and was controlled by the valve, excess flow bleeding off the top smoothly.
The problem was...the constant flow coming through via excess bleedoff from liebig...meant that the temps in the deplegm could never reach as high as I needed. I was testing it by boiling water, so that's the upper limit test, but I know it has to work there first.

So, now...I'm going to the "Manifold" ...to equalize pressure using 2 valves (ala original Flute design). And I can't put a manifold on my liebig...because I also use it on my other builds. I guess I "could" build another one...just for use with this. But, given the routing, etc...it seemed to me the side by side shotgun condenser would be a better solution (since I have to build either way).

Now, as to your question about the 14" x 1" shotgun....those are GOOD questions and I'm up for suggestions!?!? I figured 1/2 the size of the main column would be ok. 12-14" seems to be the common length for shotguns used on other Flutes, etc. So, it's all just guesses. Certaintly open for suggestions. As far as the 1/8 tubes, the tollerances are tight. But, I can get 3 or 4 of them in there I think.

Rad, 1/4" tube is 3/8" od....can only fit one of those inside 1" tube...which makes it essentially a 1" over 1/4" liebig. Have to come up with a plan C then. The other issue is...I can't run it too deep/long....clearance issues. So, I could make a 1" over 1/2" liebig...but only about 14-16" long. I dont' think that's going to be long enough for a straight through vapor condensor to do it's job.
Other option would be to build a 1.5" or 2" shotgun with 1/4" tubes..about 13-14" long. That would require more parts...another week. But, it's doable.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

mash rookie wrote:
LWTCS wrote:MR,
Unless I am reading incorrectly, U. is attempting to calibrate the size of his product condenser so that it will feed his deeflag a warmer amount of coolant.
Or at least that consideration is part of his over all attempt to get familiar with the multiple approaches used here and about.

it seems that would complicate the process even further. Wouldnt it be easier to slow the water flow to the dephlag? it seems to me that if a dephlag is too large it would still work if you can acuratley control the flow of coolant. It would just take longer to heat up.

You are both right. Those are the 2 issues I'm dealing with and trying to balance. I figured out a way to get flow to and from dephleg...but it was too cold..even at lowest volumes. I figured out a way to get pre-heated water to it..but I could not control/balance the flow between dphleg and liebig. So, I'm in fact trying to solve both issues.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

My first thought would have also been to use a tee on the out flow of your liebig with a shut off valve on the drain side to force water into the dephlag. you did say you pinched it down and were not able to get control that way either.

Instead of building a new condensor why not build a new dephlag? one that is small enough that you have to run it harder?

Maybe a cold finger like what guys were doing for VM's?

Atually Usge, If you have not run alchol through it yet, I would not change anything until you do. Alcohol vapors behave differently than water. You might be closer than you think.

ADDED What about putting some copper mesh below the dephlag to slow the vapor to it? maybe build more heat under it?
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Thanks MR. I think you are right also about the depleg...being too powerful. I guess I could just as easily rebuild the entire head...unsolder at the join at top, bottom, and take out the dephleg, shorten the tubes, and take a new piece of 2" (without all the experimental Coyote holes in it :) ) and rebuild it. I think you are right that this is part of the issue and why I'm having so much problem running cold water to it and getting it to work. I just HATE..trying to clean up and resolder parts that have been previously soldered though. I usually just use new parts rather than having to deal with that. But, these days...cost of copper.. and the fact that the discs took some labor, probably gonna make it a necessity to reuse the parts if I go that route.

And as well...that could be part of the other issue of getting the flow right...at least contributing to it — ie., the fact that currently the flow needs to be so low.

So, lets take a guess then...what is the best way to figure out what length to make your shotgun dephlegm? It's currently 2" x 3.75" long. I think the 4" Flutist are using 4" x 4". Should it be square? 2 x 2? I think guittarmaster suggested that his being even "longer" helped his flow situation.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

Usge,
Lets keep looking at your dephlag for a second. I am I correct that you are running off household water pressure? Are your input cooling lines and valves capable of full waterline pressure?

Even if your dephlag is too large, If kept full and shut off the water inside would eventually heat up to equal its surrounding environment.

If your cooling plumbing will handle pressure I would suggest this. (you may have already done this and I did not get it)

Use a restricting valve to your liebig to control its flow. Run full pressure to your dephlag with a needle valve on the exit line from the dephlag. You should be able to hold the water in until it is hot and bleed it off slowly enough to maintain a proper temp.

Let it come of in drips. The dephlag should stabilize after warming. Once you get it dialed in it should run the same each time.

I am dealing with similar issues. My new flute is functioning but difficult to control take off because the dephlag is powerful. I am going to restrict flow so that water moves more slowly through it. It was running at 94%. when I tried to increase flow to the dephlag even a little to get down into lower ABV for my UJSSM it would instantly drop ABV to 50%

I was not able to learn anything on my cleaning run. When I ran fients through it I understood a little better what it was going to do.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

My old 2"LM column uses a 1" jacketed with 1-1/2' Liebig 16" long. Works great. Would it be easier to do something like a Liebig set up for a dephlag? Add A cooling jacket to the outside of the column to create reflux? I know, silly thought.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Yes, MR...it's household pressure (from sink). The ball and needle valves are fine with the pressure. The lines I just got are high-temp plastic/rubber tubing (up to 400F). Not sure how much pressure at the joins they would take before just blowing off.

I did a similar test...but with cold water off the faucet. (ie., had a "Y" garden hose attachment to faucet that had ball valves on each side). Ran one to top of dephleg for input...needle valve on bottom to control output...the other side of the Y to the liebig. Set ball valves on Y to flow more to liebig than to dephleg..then used overall water pressure from sink to set flow. With the output shut..and water sitting there, it eventually "did" start to flow..and then quickly went to full stream. As "soon" as I cracked the needle valve...it pulls in "cold" water sitting at the top..and quickly went the other way (ie., drips to stop). The only time I got close to controlling the output and having some kind of flow with it...was when I was using liebig output, and ran water flow to liebig so low that it was huffing vapor (ie., the water coming to dephleg was HOT). I had to stop, because it was melting my hoses! (hence the new 400F capable hoses).

In so far as what I've experienced thus far (documented previously), you are right that if you stop the flow of water to the dephleg and let it sit/heat up...it will start to stabilize things and flow will start. The issue is...once you start to drain it, even if you bleed it off one drop at a time...the amount you drain off will be replaced with water coming in. This cooler water coming in (depending on the amount and temp difference) can quickly "de-stabilize" things...and cause the output to slow, or even stop. This has led me to this conclusion...other than where the dephleg is designed to never have full reflux capability regardless of flow, the incoming water has to be at a certain temp threshold..for it to have any stable flow and work properly. In that regard...stable temp of the water going "in"...would also be a factor. I think ultimately, my water needs to be somewhere around 170-190F range ..."going in" to achieve any sort of stability where I would have flow going in/out of the dephleg and stable product output with some returning reflux (on a 2"...that's about a fast dribble).

Further, my guess...and I say again "guess"...is that these 2 inchers are far more sensitive to this than the 4" seem to be — probably because the difference in the amount of heat it takes to drive them. At least it appears to be so.
Last edited by Usge on Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

mash rookie wrote:My old 2"LM column uses a 1" jacketed with 1-1/2' Liebig 16" long. Works great. Would it be easier to do something like a Liebig set up for a dephlag? Add A cooling jacket to the outside of the column to create reflux? I know, silly thought.
I'm sure it would be easier. I think the original Flute dephleg..was something like this only integral/inside. It was straight through reduced pipe with a water jacket. I think the idea behind the shotgun was that it was more easily capable of "full" reflux. A "true" dephlg...by definition...never reaches that. But, maybe on these smaller 2 inchers..that would work (ie., reach full reflux, etc).

As to your above point, and In going back over everything...I think it's starting to become more obvious that my dephleg is just knocking down far too much wood...and that all this (above) is me trying to accommodate it ...ie., using hotter water, slower/more controlled flow, etc.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by LWTCS »

mash rookie wrote:when I tried to increase flow to the dephlag even a little to get down into lower ABV for my UJSSM it would instantly drop ABV to 50%
That does not read correctly. Is that what you meant to say?
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

.
LWTCS wrote:
mash rookie wrote:when I tried to increase flow to the dephlag even a little to get down into lower ABV for my UJSSM it would instantly drop ABV to 50%
That does not read correctly. Is that what you meant to say?
Sorry, I meant to say decrease. My point (I think) is that dephlagometers are very sensitive to control. Fine adjustments are necessary and dificult because there is a lag time as well.

I agree two inch columns are going to be even tougher. Some designs are only going to scale down to a point. (a big reason I have been following your build)
In so far as what I've experienced thus far (documented previously), you are right that if you stop the flow of water to the dephleg and let it sit/heat up...it will start to stabilize things and flow will start. The issue is...once you start to drain it, even if you bleed it off one drop at a time...the amount you drain off will be replaced with water coming in. This cooler water coming in (depending on the amount and temp difference) can quickly "de-stabilize" things...and cause the output to slow, or even stop. This has led me to this conclusion...other than where the dephleg is designed to never have full reflux capability regardless of flow, the incoming water has to be at a certain temp threshold..for it to have any stable flow and work properly. In that regard...stable temp of the water going "in"...would also be a factor. I think ultimately, my water needs to be somewhere around 170-190F range ..."going in" to achieve any sort of stability where I would have flow going in/out of the dephleg and stable product output with some returning reflux (on a 2"...that's about a fast dribble).
Do you have room to install a simple cold finger? I am talking something like a six inch 1/2" pipe fed from 1/4" lines top and bottom. It might be all you need for your rig. Think small?
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by myles »

When I was experimenting some time back with a hybrid, I used a coil wraped around the outside of an unpacked section of 2" tube to generate some reflux condensate.
Image

Perhaps 1 or 2 coils wraped around your column might be sufficient to warm up the coolant before it reaches your dephlegmator and thus reduce the sensitivity to a more controleable level. These small dephlegmators will work better I suspect with warmer coolant, and the output of your liebig (EDIT:will) might be too cold.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

You guys are most probably right in every regard. Seems the issue is ...my deplegm is "chopping too much wood" (far too efficient). I'll have to see what I've got here...in so far as options for a new build out.
I may have parts for a liebig/straight through type job....but I may also just chop out the shotgun and cut off the barrel (ie. sawed off shot gun). Coyote likes that !
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

UPDATE:
Ok boys and girls. I spent all day Sat building a new head/dephlegmator reusing my internals and various parts from the old one, and adding a few new ones. I disassembled the shotgun, and cut it down to 2". (2 x 2). I made the valve on the bottom "input" now instead of output. And I put a drain/output at the very top...using a "T"...and NPT threaded therm so I can monitor the exit water temp. I added a special high-temp hose for the output knowing that the water was going to get hotter than my plastic ones could take.
Deplegm_II_frnt.jpg
Deplegm_II_side.jpg
I used all 4 plates and ran 3 gals of mixed water/heads/feints that came out to about 10% ...using it to clean for cleaning run. I ran a "T" from the sink flowing cold water (the one with ball valves on each side), and adjusted water for max flow to both the depghlegm input (controlled by needle valve) and the liebig. After that, my plan was simply to use the needle valve for controlling flow to depghlegm and the ball valve on the other side to control water to liebig as needed. That was the plan anyway. Once the vapor came up, to about 170F-..drips started coming out. I turned the heat down slightly (to med-hi) and increased the flow to the water system at the sink. Now, I'm flowing full out, valve wide open, and lots of flow. It was still dripping, but only about 1 drop every 3 sec or so. The vapor temp settled at 174F. At that point, I had a couple leaks that I patched with paste/dough.

After adjusting the flow up, heat down a little, I was able to get it to stabilize under full reflux and I left it for about 20 mins. Still at 174F. Looking good so far...but having to flow so much water through the dephleg to get full reflux had me a little concerned at that point. Alas, I started to reduce the flow via the needle valve...and as I did..I monitored the temp on the water temp on the output. I fiddle back and for with this for a long time. It responded fairly quickly in regards to temp changes. If you turned the valve off...the temp would quickly rise. If you opened it up..the exiting water temp would quickly fall. But, getting to stabilize was bit more tricky. It seemed it always wanted to either rise or fall. Making the changes smaller just made that happen slower.

A long story short...after many mins of fiddling...I found that a very small amount of flow was needed through the dephlegm. (my needle valve goes from 1-10, three times around...each time revealing a different colored thread/ring. I started all the way out..and ended up on the first ring at 5. When the water temp finally got up to 150-160 it started to drip. I was looking for 170-180F. I finally got sort of a fast dribble at 170. And at 180F..it looked about right (ie., almost a stream ..but not quite). When distillate finally emerged from the parrot it registered 85%. I fiddle some more with the water, etc. tweaking for flow and just testing it. It was apparent that even with the 2 incher dephlegm..it didn't take much flow at all. So, I upped the heat just a bit...to drive it a little harder (as per suggestions here). Soon, the vapor temp was up to 190!! I opened the valve up...and the dephegm responded immediately...stopping the flow. The water temp on the exit of the dephlegm..dropped smoothly but fairly quickly. The vapor temp dropped...but only to about 185F...I looked at the parrot...it was showing 80% in the parrot (ie., it was dropping from 85%). At first I thought something was wrong...but then quickly realized, Its just running out of alc. (there's only so much in 3 gals of 10%). And it was getting tricky to stabilize....another sign. I closed the valve at that point and took off the tails.

I collected 425ml of distillate total. Given it takes about 100-110ml to fill my parrot before it starts coming out...it was impossible to get any sort of reading on it from the very beginning and through transitions, etc. But, what I observed was, by the time it was coming out of the parrot, it was about 85%. It held there only for a bit, then started dropping steadily...down to 85%, then faster down to 80%...then towards the end quickly to 70%. From there, I just closed the valve and flushed out about 120ml that measured 20%. As to the distillate itself...the first that came out was nasty! Strong smelling heads, with a hint of flux (yum). I didn't really taste anything cause it was full of flux.

SO: In the end...comparing this to my run on wash using the old one using the same setup (water T at faucet control flow via the ball valves on the T), I think I was using about the same amount of flow/water. It was just much easier to control using the needle valve, as opposed to the balancing act using the mini ball valves on the faucet T. I think the shorter dephelgm responds much quicker to input changes. I'm not sure whether this makes it harder to stabilize or not..given I didn't monitor temps on my other rig. I'm gonna leave that question for later, given the small alc in the run...also made things less than stable (ie., temps constantly rising, requiring more cooling, etc). So, there's a lot of factors that play into that. The therm on the output...was good info and monitoring it confirmed what I suspected. Somewhere around 180F is where you want it to be. Taking that into consideration...the obvious is...the larger your dephleg is...the longer it will take to heat up, and cool. Whether than translates into making it more stable..is another question — it may respond more slowly, but it's still going to rise, fall...etc. I found the most effective way to use mine was to make a large adjustment..to get it into the general temp range I want (like turn it off till it reaches 170), and then crack it open just a bit to slow temp rise in that general area...and see where it ends up. A few minor tweaks from there...and I was on 182F. It was rising very slowly, given the temp/vapor temp rise.

The only thing that concerns me at this point..was at the very beginning when it didn't provide total reflux. That was under full boil...and while I had continual flow through the dephlegm (small stream) it wasn't enough — although there was more flow possible through the faucet itself. That is to remember that I'm not using heated water off the liebig...but cold tap water. It's yet to be seen if I've gone "too" far. But, I think this is much closer off the bat than the previous attempts were, and everything else seems to be working in so far as the water control, etc. The other thing related to this was...at some point over 200F vapor temp, I tried to re-stabilize it...and knock the vapor temp back down to 170s-180. It would only go as far as 185F at that point just using the valve all the way open — again possibly pointing to not quite enough knock down when it's full-out.

I was hoping to see 90% or better off the bat with the 4 plates though ..given that would have at least been an encouraging sign everything was on the right track. It may have well been up in that range when it first was dripping off. But, trying to get stream out of it...playing with water flow, etc...the vapor temp quickly shot up and abv was falling from there. Perhaps more alc in the pot will help with that (we shall see). But, I'm pretty much convinced at this point...that trying to do spirit run on 5 gals of wash/mash is pretty pointless. You need volume for that. That's it for now. Got a few leaks to fix up.
squidd
Swill Maker
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:49 pm

Re: Dephlegmators

Post by squidd »

Usge,

Your results confirm Harry's recommendation to keep the dephlegmator exit water temp at 80 - 83 degrees C.
Also what others have surmised about the faster response of a low volume condenser.

A 2 chamber unit could give you extra knockdown punch for full reflux.

Cheers,
squidd
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Dephlegmators

Post by rad14701 »

Usge, before making any additional changes it sounds like you should do another test using a larger boiler charge... With on 3 gallons you probably had most of your spirits in the flute plates and any adjustments you were making were causing changes throughout the entire rig... I'm fairly certain that you will see the overall performance stabilize and be more to your liking with more wash, equating to more alcohol, in the boiler...
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