Worm question

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Ferthy
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Worm question

Post by Ferthy »

I have a 5 gallon keg still build that I will be running with a 1500w internal element. I came across some 1/2 inch I.d. Copper coil tubing for free. Now I have I set so that 15.75 feet would be submerged in a 5 gallon bucket. Would that be enough? The calculator on the site suggested that I use something more in the 18 feet range with my set up. However, I have read many say that the calculator was a bit conservative. Any suggestions? Or should I buy more tubing?


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cranky
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Re: Worm question

Post by cranky »

I see you still don't have an answer so I'll give it a go.

Full disclosure I don't like flake stand condensers and always advocate using a liebig even if the coil is free but I think 15ft should be fine provided you have a way to get additional water in and out of the bucket should the need arise. That calculator is not very accurate. My liebig has 36" of cooling and can knock down anything my 5500W burner throws at it, the calculator says it would require something like 12Ft to do the same job.
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GrassHopper
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Re: Worm question

Post by GrassHopper »

+1 Cranky.
My liebig is 30" long and knocks down anything I throw at it with a 2 ring propane burner on a 15.5 keg boiler. A liebig is efficient and easy peasy.
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Re: Worm question

Post by Mr Sippy »

Ferthy- think more in terms of heat transfer. Cranky and GH vapor tube is 1/5 of yours so 15 feet is plenty. Your setup is on the small side side so I don't have a feel for heat transfer at that scale. The real number you want to know is how much heat your 5 gal bucket of water can hold before you have to change it. Just be prepared to empty and refill it in a hurry when its time. Then you'll know. Not being a smartass, just that the calculations can be tedious.
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corene1
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Re: Worm question

Post by corene1 »

Mr Sippy is correct , The length of your coil is fine but you need a water transfer system in your flake stand. Most flakestands work on the same principal as a liebeg. Cool water comes in from the bottom and the warm water flows over the top of the flake stand or through a drain in the top. If you really like the coil idea look into building a Grahm condenser. They are a cross between a flake stand and a liebeg. I run one and they are very water efficient. I run 10 feet of 1/2 inch ID tube wrapped into a 4-1/2 inch diameter coil wit 1- 1/2 inches drop per coil and is installed in a tube 5-1/2 inch diameter by 16 inches tall. Then plumb cool water into the bottom and warm water out the top. Basically just like the flakestand shown except with a sealed top.
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Ferthy
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Re: Worm question

Post by Ferthy »

Well originally I liked the idea or a worm becuase then I wouldn't need to use lots of water to keep the worm cool. But once I started looking into it I knew I would need some sort of circulation for it. And now that I revisited the subject I think I would need more water than I originally thought. So I need to circulate water I might as well make a Liebig so I don't have to go back and build one down the line.


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Ferthy
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Re: Worm question

Post by Ferthy »

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=27684

There is a parts list and plan for a Liebig. My plan is to scale the diameter of mine down to 1/2 in Id pipe with a 3/4 inch jacket and scale the fittings accordingly. My plan is to make the jacketed part somewhere between 2-3 feet as my hardware store sells 5 foot pipe lengths for those two sizes. Then I just need to look at my faucet and find a way to hook it up to the condenser. Does this sound good?


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GrassHopper
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Re: Worm question

Post by GrassHopper »

[quote="Ferthy"]http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=27684

There is a parts list and plan for a Liebig. My plan is to scale the diameter of mine down to 1/2 in Id pipe with a 3/4 inch jacket and scale the fittings accordingly. My plan is to make the jacketed part somewhere between 2-3 feet as my hardware store sells 5 foot pipe lengths for those two sizes. Then I just need to look at my faucet and find a way to hook it up to the condenser. Does this sound good?

Yeah, that all sounds good and that's a good thread to build from. Although your copper you already have was free and you will incur some cost to build your liebig. But, I think you will be happy with it.
Just keep in mind that a tri-clamp connection coming off your elbow to your liebig will give you the ability to adjust the height of your liebig output for ease of collecting at a comfortable height.
I also have a union on my liebig for easy removal in case I want to run something different. So, plan ahead as to where you want your output to be so you can figure how much length your liebig will best fit your needs without being to short to be efficient. Your liebig needs to sit at around 45 degrees. Good luck!
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cranky
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Re: Worm question

Post by cranky »

Another liebig thread worth a read is Hooklines
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =87&t=9247
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Re: Worm question

Post by Ferthy »

+Cranky

I read through that post of Hooklines as well as a few others. I currently have pipe cut and all the fittings for a simple Liebig. The jacketed part will be 31 inches. Might be overkill but I hve the pipe and don't really have another use for it at the moment. I figure if and when I upgrade to I would have a Liebig to accommodate something a bit larger as well. My current thought right now is to just make the Liebig and see how it runs. If needed I could outfit it later with improvements such as copper wire in the water jacket. Or possibly crimping the vapor tube right off the bat as I have heard that is also effective at creating turbulence in both the water jacket and vapor tube.


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BamaBill
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Re: Worm question

Post by BamaBill »

I started off with a bucket and about 15' of 3/8" cooled copper on a 7 1/2 gallon pot (5gal mash). Not once did I over run water capacity.

I have since moved to a 15 gal still and use the same condenser. You WILL need to change water 2-3 times with a 15 gallon setup.
I simply drilled a hole and threaded a hose bib directly into the bucket. I drain it about half way, add cold. Three times will normally get me thru.
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Re: Worm question

Post by Shine0n »

I still run a worm condenser as well, mine is in a 30 barrel and I don't have to change water at all.

At 8 or so inches down the water is cool as a cucumber.

I like the idea of a liebig but just haven't needed one yet, I plan on building one at some point but right now I see no need.

Space might be the reason for having a liebig, but if you don't have running water where you still you will still need a tank filled with cool water, a pump (with batteries) hoses, and if that tank water gets too warm you still need to add cool water.

My point being is that if you have a worm in a big enough barrel there will not be any issue of the water being cool enough. It doesn't have to be freezing to knock the vapor down, I change the water maybe 3 times a year but I do treat it like pool water and keep for the most part clean.

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Kareltje
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Re: Worm question

Post by Kareltje »

I never had a watercooled condenser, as i made my first still with a very light and long cooling worm that I could hang free in the air. I forces me to run quite slowly, for of course the distillate leaving the cooler has to be less than lukewarm.
Point is that you need a very long cooler, so it has to be wounded. The first I had was about 4 m long and 9 mm OD copper, the one I use now is about 7 m and 15 mm OD stainless steel. Very great advantage is: you have one problem less, for it works always. (Well, not really: not in a place with an ambient temperature of 50 degr C!) But no weight, no leaks, now water, no risk of stopping coolant flow.
On the other hand: last week I tried a newly bought water cooler and it allowed me to run at full speed.

Just for fun I made a circular Liebigcondenser. I put a 15 mm pipe in a 22 mm pipe and bend the two together with a bending iron. I miscalculated the radius and acted a bit hasty, so the result is not nice. But judging by the resistance in the pipes it will work.

When using a line condenser, the advice of Grasshopper is very sound: be sure you can vary the angle of your condenser!
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skow69
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Re: Worm question

Post by skow69 »

Bamabill, try draining hot water off the top and adding cool water in at the bottom. You will use a lot less water.
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BamaBill
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Re: Worm question

Post by BamaBill »

skow69 wrote:Bamabill, try draining hot water off the top and adding cool water in at the bottom. You will use a lot less water.
Thanks, Skow69. I'm really pleased with the helpfulness most people on here have been, and this is another prime example.
What you say is spot on, and thank you.
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Re: Worm question

Post by BamaBill »

skow69 wrote:Bamabill, try draining hot water off the top and adding cool water in at the bottom. You will use a lot less water.
Thanks, Skow69. I'm really pleased with the helpfulness most people on here have been, and this is another prime example.
What you say is spot on, and thank you.
muscashine
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Re: Worm question

Post by muscashine »

Ferthy wrote:I have a 5 gallon keg still build that I will be running with a 1500w internal element. I came across some 1/2 inch I.d. Copper coil tubing for free. Now I have I set so that 15.75 feet would be submerged in a 5 gallon bucket. Would that be enough? The calculator on the site suggested that I use something more in the 18 feet range with my set up. However, I have read many say that the calculator was a bit conservative. Any suggestions? Or should I buy more tubing?
Hey Ferthy - my experience:
I have a 20 foot coil of 1/2" tubing. I put it in a 7 gallon fermeting bucket I bought from a wine/beer store. I only drilled one hole in the bottom for the liquor outlet tube, everything else comes in the top. I use faucet water for cooling. Run a line from the faucet into the top of the bucket, and put the open end at the bottom, so cold water goes in the bottom and hot is pushed to the top. I used to just dip the hot water out, but recently I got a nylon angle barb from lowes, drilled a hole very near the top of the bucket, and siliconed the nylon thing in place. I have a 1/4" hose that drops into a plastic 5 gallon water jug.
I use a 13 gallon boiler, and after it heats up I drop the element back to about 9amps, which is about 2100 watts. Only the first turn or two gets really warm, the rest stay cool down in the bucket. I think I have about 7 full turns. Your 15 foot coil should be plenty. Make sure you have a constant drop in your worm, none of the coils should run uphill. I used wood forms with holes to make sure I had a constant rate drop.
I've found measuring water flow that my worm is more efficient than my liebig. I use less water with the worm bucket, but there's more maintenance during a run. It's easy to have more water in than the output tube can handle, so you can overflow the bucket or not have enough water and it gets hot farther and farther down. Water is cheap where I live but I hate wasting it, so I'm probably going with a pond pump soon. With the liebig its simply a matter of opening or closing the faucet and letting it run.
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Re: Worm question

Post by APD »

My experience with worm coil;

5 metres of 3/4" copper tube coiled into worm and mounted permanently into a 50L stainless pot (just so I have an easy to use modular unit).
worm_pot.JPG
Have a cold-in (at bottom)/hot-out (at top) and they just clip onto garden hoses with flow control on the end of the hose feeding-in.

Recent runs I have done I haven't had to start water circulating until over half way thru' the run (50L kettle pot-still/thumper running on gas flame with 10% - 15% washes).
I can run my hand up the outside of the stainless steel pot encasing the worm and past halfway thru' the run (while the water has still not been turned on) the pot is usually stone cold up to two finger-widths from the top. The mersion layer cold/hot differential is amazingly sharp!

Necessary water flow for adequate cooling is a dribble coming out of the run-off line. (Sorry - don't have actual quantity or flow measured, ... maybe something I do next time.)

When I first started running this rig 18months/2years ago as a complete newbie I wasted SO much water. After I got to grips with the process I realized the worm was a lot more efficient than I knew.

Main reason I went for the flake-stand/worm was I'm living off-grid and don't have unlimited power for running pumps and such over extended durations.
Water can also be a bit of a commodity itself around my place.
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rgreen2002
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Re: Worm question

Post by rgreen2002 »

That is a nice looking flake stand APD...real clean! :mrgreen:
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muscashine
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Re: Worm question

Post by muscashine »

rgreen2002 wrote:That is a nice looking flake stand APD...real clean! :mrgreen:
I agree! I still have my worm, but I've finally figured out how to run my Liebig right so I haven't used the worm in a while.
I like the modular style so I can run different stuff. I can either use the liebig or the worm depending how i feel.
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Re: Worm question

Post by Playhard »

muscashine wrote:
I agree! I still have my worm, but I've finally figured out how to run my Liebig right so I haven't used the worm in a while.
I like the modular style so I can run different stuff. I can either use the liebig or the worm depending how i feel.
Can you give me the bare dimensional data for your liebig. I am planning one for a pot still up to 10l (1/4 keg). What were the nominal pipe sizes you used for the inner and out pipes. And, how long was the water cooled portion of the condenser section? Thanks. I'm planning my first still. Transitioning from a long period of wine making.
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Re: Worm question

Post by The Baker »

Probably pay to make the liebig big enough for say 50 litres boiler.
You will need more tube but EXACTLY the same fittings and the same solder (whatever) joints. And you will NOT need more water flow when doing the small batch just because the condenser is longer.
And then you can use the same liebig for a bigger boiler later if you wish.

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Re: Worm question

Post by Shine0n »

Back in April I mentioned building a liebig and now December and I'm still using the worm now in a 55 gal drum.
I honestly can't see me building the liebig because I run in the barn with no power and running a double thumper pot still with propane.

If (when) I decide to build a flute I'll go with a shotty but for what I do the worm is the ticket. I love it and see no need for mods to it the way she sits.
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