Graham Condenser build

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Tmj558
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Graham Condenser build

Post by Tmj558 »

I'm in the process of building a new pot still for making bourbon. Using a brand new stainless steel leg with a stainless steel 5500w ULWD element in the bottom. I have not decided which controller to build yet but I'm researching that aggressively since there's plenty of information on that. I'm coming out of the keg with a 2" riser going up for about 24" then 90* turn over about 12" then another 90* turn straight down. When I make the turn down I plan to reduce from 2" to the 3/8" ID coil that I have made by wrapping about 12' of type L tubing around a 1" mandrel and then spacing the could about 3/16" apart. My intention is to jacket this coil in a piece of 2" tubing and solder this jacket to the reducer at the top and reduce it down at the bottom of the coil, which is about 24" to make the bottom of the jacket. On the outside of the coil I am going to solder a piece of 10 gauge copper wire running vertically on 4 sides of the coil to keep it from contacting the jacket. Does anyone see any problems with this method? Do you have any suggestions? Do you think this will be an efficient condenser or have any idea about what kind of water flow I will need. Also, the current problem is getting the sugar out of the coil. I did not use salt like I should have and I'm very open to suggestions as I would rather not have to wind another coil if that can be avoided. Here are pictures to clear up what I'm trying to say. Please excuse the primitive drawing

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der wo
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by der wo »

IMO totally failed, sorry.
Why don't you build a simple liebig?
Your design is on the one hand a total cooling overkill on the other hand pressure will build up. I consider it dangerous such a small diameter and in adition such a small diameter in combonation with such a length.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Tmj558
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Tmj558 »

Would 1/2" ID tubing be a safer choice? What would cause pressure to build ? I'm not doubting your response at all, I'm just trying to learn from your reasoning.
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Kareltje
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Kareltje »

A diameter of 3/8 is about 10 mm, right?
I think that the capacity of your condenser will limit the speed you can run, so you will need a good controller on your 5500 W-element. When you run it at full speed your vapour will race through the worm so fast, it has hardly time to condens.

I am interested in the results, though. Because I might be wrong.
So I hope you will tell us about the fortgoing.
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der wo
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by der wo »

There should be an always open path from the boiler to the outlet, that the stil can breath. Your condenser will spit. The whole construction will jiggle and force you to keep the heat low. Yes, 1/2" is a bit better. But why don't you take a 3/4" straight pipe and a 1" jacket?
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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NZChris
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by NZChris »

You could try putting the water through the coil and the vapour through the jacket, but I doubt you would get enough flow.
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shadylane
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by shadylane »

NZChris wrote:You could try putting the water through the coil and the vapour through the jacket, but I doubt you would get enough flow.
Don't underestimate the power of a dimroth condenser.
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NZChris
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by NZChris »

Yeah, but that tube looks pretty flat.
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shadylane
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by shadylane »

Tmj558 wrote:Would 1/2" ID tubing be a safer choice? What would cause pressure to build ?
Graham condensers aren't used as often as Liebig or Dimroth condensers.
Part of the reason is it's difficult to wind a Graham coil without smashing or kinking 3/8 or 1/2" tubing.
If anything gets into the coil, such as puke. It's likely to plug it.
On a Dimroth condenser the coil only has to handle the cooling water flow.
And can be 1/4" ID that's easily coiled. That means more turns and surface area for the vapor to condense on :thumbup:
Last edited by shadylane on Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pikey
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Pikey »

NZChris wrote:You could try putting the water through the coil and the vapour through the jacket, but I doubt you would get enough flow.
I think if you tightened the jacket to 1.5 ? or whatever is tightish and spread your coils alittle, you could have a nice "knockdown"
This fits in a 1" tube
This fits in a 1" tube
Starting to add teh copper
Starting to add teh copper
I think this sort of "Reverse Graham" is well under estimated as a product condenser although well used as a reflux condnser :)

[edit 2 - That kit of mine will knock down 1.5-2 kw using 1.0 - 1.2 litres water /min depending on ambient temps. To know dow 5.5kw - I don't think so ! You will doofo need to turn your power down when it satrts to boil.

For the avoidance of doubt coolant flows through the coils in this kit ! :) ]
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still_stirrin
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by still_stirrin »

When you twist a coil, if it flattens the tubing you end up reducing the flow area. That is what NZChris is referring to.
condenser coil dimension.pdf
I've tabulated the bore area (full open area) for different sizes of soft tubing for type M, type L, and type K. Also, I've calculated the flow area for various heights of flattening. See the attached document for a better understanding.

When the area reduces, it creates a flow restriction, be it vapor or liquid. Either way, it may become dangerous to your operation.
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Tmj558
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Tmj558 »

So from what I have gathered here my current plan is not safe so I'm going to abandon that idea. What are yalls thoughts on making the Liebig condenser with 3/4" jacketed inside of 2". I know that that diameter would be heavy and probably some overkill but I already have the materials to do it that way so it would be nice to not have to buy more copper. I'm having trouble deciphering the calculator on the home site. How do I determine the length needed with the larger jacket?
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by shadylane »

Tmj558 wrote:What are yalls thoughts on making the Liebig condenser with 3/4" jacketed inside of 2".
If you don't mind over kill, you could make a shotgun condenser with three 3/4" tubes inside the 2" jacket. :wink:
Out of curiosity, what size boiler and what you gonna heat it with :?:
Tmj558
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Tmj558 »

Using a new stainless steel 15.5 gallon keg How do I determine the length prior to building. I'm still reading and researching about how to run the water through so is that something that I need to decide on prior to assembling the condenser ?
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shadylane
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by shadylane »

Tmj558 wrote:Using a new stainless steel 15.5 gallon keg How do I determine the length prior to building.
How much power is used to make the keg boil, desides the condenser size :lol:
Is the keg boiler going to be heated with internal electric or flame
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Tmj558 »

I have a 5500 watt ULWD stainless steel element.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by still_stirrin »

Tmj,

Using the Liebig calculation tool on the parent site for 3/4" ID tubing with 5500 W input power with normal water temperature differences, I get a Liebig length of 90". Now, if you use a 3 tube shotgun made with 3/4" inside of a 2" jacket, I would divide the 90" length by 3, giving a shotgun length of 30". I believe that will get you easily into the "ballpark" with the build such that you can adjust water flow rates to manage that heat input.

But when building the shotgun, I strongly recommend adding internal baffles (at least 3) inside the water jacket. It causes the water to circulate around the tube bank, thereby dramatically improving the heat transfer rate. The baffles interrupt channel flow through the tube bank especially when the condenser shell is filled with the vapor tubes.

30" length of conducting surface should get you "close to the finishing line".
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by shadylane »

@ Tmj558
Here's some links I found using the "HD Google Search" :lol:

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 87&t=56667" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://ww1.homedistiller.org/forum/view ... 1&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 7&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=44788

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3YK95jW5p0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
zapata
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by zapata »

If you build a 2" shotgun, put more than 3 baffles in it. Ideally put baffles in every 2". Cut the baffles to have a 37% window.
Explained here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=67493
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by shadylane »

der wo wrote:There should be an always open path from the boiler to the outlet, that the stil can breath. Your condenser will spit. The whole construction will jiggle and force you to keep the heat low. Yes, 1/2" is a bit better. But why don't you take a 3/4" straight pipe and a 1" jacket?
Sounds like good logical advice :lol:
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by matt50702 »

I have a condenser similar to this. Not pretty, but it works. I don't remember the specifics on my line, but I think it was 10' of 3/8" copper tubing. It's stuffed inside a pvc pipe and connected to the rest of the still. My flow rate is about a gallon an hour and it has a pretty steady stream.
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by Pikey »

matt50702 wrote:I have a condenser similar to this. Not pretty, but it works. I don't remember the specifics on my line, but I think it was 10' of 3/8" copper tubing. It's stuffed inside a pvc pipe and connected to the rest of the still. My flow rate is about a gallon an hour and it has a pretty steady stream.
Wt still yu runnin' ?

1 LIte/min is about as low as yu can go - 60 - 70 Litres /hour (depends how big your gallons are ) \

NOPE - can't be done - unlesss youhave a Kareltje type apparatus ! :D
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by corene1 »

There are a lot of interesting ideas to try when making a condenser. I am not real big on calculations but have built a few different styles and have had great success with Graham style condenser. Mine is 10 feet of 1/2 inch ID tube wrapped around a 3 inch mandrel with a 2 inch drop per twist and it is installed in a piece of 5 inch .045 walled stainless steel tube. It is very efficient at both condensation as well as minimal use of cooling water. It uses much less water per run than either of my Liebeg condensers. I run a 25 gallon boiler with a pot still head or a 3 plate column depending on what I am making if that matters. When I wrap the tube I fill it with water and crimp the ends tightly . Then freeze it solid and bend it. That keeps the tube from collapsing , but you must bend it quickly before the ice melts . If it starts to melt refreeze it then continue. Then thaw it out and it is clear, no muss no fuss.
I have also tried a couple of different liebegs and have discovered that you can go too big and lose efficiency. My first was built using the thought bigger must be better. I built a 40 inch 3/4 ID tube inside a 1-1/2 I tube. Did all the modifications to insure the water swirled around the center tube while moving upwards as well as building a turbulator for the inside of the condenser tube. What I found out was that the opening was too big and the hot vapors needed to travel farther down the tube to get into contact with the walls of the tubing. To make it work better I needed to put some copper packing in it to slow the vapor down . My 1/2 inch ID liebeg at 42 inches is just as efficient at the same power output than the big one and uses a bit less flow on the colling water at the same time.
I built a shotgun type condenser for a fellow distiller and if I were to build another condenser for my self that would be the style I would go. Nice and compact with a large amount of cooling area inside the tubes. I would build a 4 by 1/2 inch tube condenser 24 inches long. Some will say this is overkill but with that much cooling area the amount of cooling water used is much less . Just some thoughts and trials from the tinkering mind of me.
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Re: Graham Condenser build

Post by matt50702 »

Pikey wrote:
matt50702 wrote:I have a condenser similar to this. Not pretty, but it works. I don't remember the specifics on my line, but I think it was 10' of 3/8" copper tubing. It's stuffed inside a pvc pipe and connected to the rest of the still. My flow rate is about a gallon an hour and it has a pretty steady stream.
Wt still yu runnin' ?

1 LIte/min is about as low as yu can go - 60 - 70 Litres /hour (depends how big your gallons are ) \

NOPE - can't be done - unlesss youhave a Kareltje type apparatus ! :D
I have a 15.5 gallon ss keg still. I run a 12 gallon mash when I run it. I've got about 2' of 2" copper pipe going down to 1" for roughly a foot. Then to 1/2" curving down into my Graham condenser. Like I said, it's not pretty but it gets the job done. Haven't had a single flow issues
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