EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Anything cooling/condenser related.

Moderator: Site Moderator

OtisT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by OtisT » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:09 pm

I’d imagine the only difference for him will be space saved. A change in PC should not impact collection speed or taste of the product.

I’m also building one of these now. I bought plates for two condensers. My first is going to have 14” vapor pipes, 16” overall length, with 5 baffles and 1/2” cooling water I/O. I only need it to handle 5500w and with good flow I suspect 14” of jacket will be just enough. If not, I have plates for a second condenser.

Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels

User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: PNW

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Deplorable » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:53 pm

Stripping run times we're cut by probably 40% or better.
Spirit run, I've only done one, but my initial impression was that the elimination of the restriction from the top of the riser to the PC made a big improvement in the character of the final spirit. My spirit run times are similar. My cooling water consumption went down a good bit as well.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Durhommer » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:55 pm

Deplorable wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:53 pm
Stripping run times we're cut by probably 40% or better.
Spirit run, I've only done one, but my initial impression was that the elimination of the restriction from the top of the riser to the PC made a big improvement in the character of the final spirit. My spirit run times are similar. My cooling water consumption went down a good bit as well.
Do you run city water or a recirculation system
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: PNW

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Deplorable » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm

OtisT wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:09 pm
I’d imagine the only difference for him will be space saved. A change in PC should not impact collection speed or taste of the product.

I’m also building one of these now. I bought plates for two condensers. My first is going to have 14” vapor pipes, 16” overall length, with 5 baffles and 1/2” cooling water I/O. I only need it to handle 5500w and with good flow I suspect 14” of jacket will be just enough. If not, I have plates for a second condenser.

Otis
Taste, no. Character it did, but it wasn't just the condenser. For me it was the whole still. A full 2 inches all the way through, all copper.
It absolutely improved take off speed on strips because of the full 2 inches of unrestricted flow, a could throw more heat at the boiler without overpowering the PC.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: PNW

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Deplorable » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:00 pm

Durhommer wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:55 pm
Deplorable wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:53 pm
Stripping run times we're cut by probably 40% or better.
Spirit run, I've only done one, but my initial impression was that the elimination of the restriction from the top of the riser to the PC made a big improvement in the character of the final spirit. My spirit run times are similar. My cooling water consumption went down a good bit as well.
Do you run city water or a recirculation system
City water, flow to waste.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Durhommer » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:03 pm

So I'm trying to get twisted brick to build me a shotgun he said he would for 250 plus shipping I'm also purchasing spools a t and 90s I just haven't heard from him in a few days I run a recirculating system so the 2 inch brings the likker over from the boiler maybe 20 minutes quicker on a milkcan still??
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

OtisT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by OtisT » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:40 pm

Deplorable wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm
OtisT wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:09 pm
I’d imagine the only difference for him will be space saved. A change in PC should not impact collection speed or taste of the product.

I’m also building one of these now. I bought plates for two condensers. My first is going to have 14” vapor pipes, 16” overall length, with 5 baffles and 1/2” cooling water I/O. I only need it to handle 5500w and with good flow I suspect 14” of jacket will be just enough. If not, I have plates for a second condenser.

Otis
Taste, no. Character it did, but it wasn't just the condenser. For me it was the whole still. A full 2 inches all the way through, all copper.
It absolutely improved take off speed on strips because of the full 2 inches of unrestricted flow, a could throw more heat at the boiler without overpowering the PC.
Good point. I did not consider your previous condenser was limiting your power input.
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels

User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: PNW

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Deplorable » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:19 pm

Correct. My "combo" still head had a 13mm OD off take to the SS condenser, same as his MH. The ID of that off take is about .370". A huge restriction that I believe resulted in some issues.
One, I think it is a restriction that at high temp inputs, induces unwanted reflux by allowing vapor time to condense at the top of the head before it can enter the line arm to the RC. So to get a tame, flavorful spirit running in a pot still you have to run painfully slow.
The undersized condenser on mine, like Durhommers, was woefully inadequate, so I lobbed it off and built a better liebig. Running it from the 3/4 opening intended for the (unnecessary) thermometer, I saw an immediate improvement in performance, and a reduction of observed reflux in the sight glass below the head.
Building an all copper 2" CCVM eliminated the need for copper packing in the riser, that I suspect, after a few runs on the new rig was probably tighter than I really needed it to be.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: PNW

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Deplorable » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:34 pm

Durhommer wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:03 pm
So I'm trying to get twisted brick to build me a shotgun he said he would for 250 plus shipping I'm also purchasing spools a t and 90s I just haven't heard from him in a few days I run a recirculating system so the 2 inch brings the likker over from the boiler maybe 20 minutes quicker on a milkcan still??
I wouldn't put it that way. With heat up times being equal because you aren't changing your boiler or heat source, time from flame on to first drips should remain the same. However, I couldn't overpower that shotgun on my cleaning runs. Even throwing full power from my 100k BTU propane burner. Did I waste a lot of cooling water trying? Sure, but the output was never over 70F at the spout.
The improvements in time come from the fact you can throw more heat during the stripping run and increase your output rate significantly.
TBH, I could have probably thrown more heat at the boiler during stripping runs and let it puke, but I chose not to, managing the heat until the foam stayed no higher than the bottom of my sight glass. Once past the threat of a puke I increased heat a bit more and maintained a off take rate I was happy with around 2l every 15 minutes.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Durhommer » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:20 pm

2 liter every 15 minutes is amazing to me
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

Crabmanstyle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:34 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Crabmanstyle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 pm

Durhommer wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:20 pm
2 liter every 15 minutes is amazing to me
I've a 2" x 24" shotgun with 5 1/2" tubes and with 4kW power and maybe 1/2 liter per minute cooling I'm getting 1 litre ever 10 minutes on a strip and it's coming nowhere close to its full potential. I'm restricted by my power supply only.

Love the toolmaking for those dies by the way.

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Durhommer » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 pm

Just purchased one of these condensers from twisted brick the craftsmanship is amazing this thing looks like a great solid piece
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

OtisT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by OtisT » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:23 pm

Hey Twisted Brick. I finally got around to making my first shotgun using your plates. Went really well.

18” vapor paths. The solder up was fairly easy. I started by soldering up the 4 pipes and all the plates in one shot. After dry fitting the input and output fittings I soldered up one end all at once, cooled it, then soldered up the other end. I only had to leak test it twice. :oops:

It will never be this shiny again.
2EEE3007-48AE-42B3-82B5-A08A0F9896F0.jpeg
2BF2818F-D221-44A7-8231-730D324B81ED.jpeg
Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Durhommer » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:04 pm

Looks good otis
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

User avatar
Twisted Brick
Distiller
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Twisted Brick » Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:36 pm

Nice job, Otis. On my original shotgun I think I soldered all the baffles first, then inserted the tubeset and soldered in the endplates, then the ferrules, and lastly the vapor tubes, all in one go per end. I think there's more than one order to soldering them up.

Your copper ferrules are elegant.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer

User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 3744
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Yummyrum » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:19 am

Sweet as a nut Otis :thumbup:

User avatar
Bee
Novice
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Bee » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:16 am

OtisT wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:23 pm
Hey Twisted Brick. I finally got around to making my first shotgun using your plates. Went really well.

18” vapor paths. The solder up was fairly easy. I started by soldering up the 4 pipes and all the plates in one shot. After dry fitting the input and output fittings I soldered up one end all at once, cooled it, then soldered up the other end. I only had to leak test it twice. :oops:
Very nice! Could you share what materials and equipment you used to solder it? My water-out still leaks a little when I put too much water pressure in it.

OtisT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by OtisT » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:14 am

Bee wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:16 am
OtisT wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:23 pm
Hey Twisted Brick. I finally got around to making my first shotgun using your plates. Went really well.

18” vapor paths. The solder up was fairly easy. I started by soldering up the 4 pipes and all the plates in one shot. After dry fitting the input and output fittings I soldered up one end all at once, cooled it, then soldered up the other end. I only had to leak test it twice. :oops:
Very nice! Could you share what materials and equipment you used to solder it? My water-out still leaks a little when I put too much water pressure in it.
Just hand tools. Drill motor with step bits to drill holes, hand pipe cutters, deburring tool and files to take off rough edges. I use sanding pads to prep the surface of copper before all soldering. (Surface prep is critical) For soldering I use a simple hand MAP torch for heat. I’m using Harris Stay-brite-8 solder and Stay-clean paste solder. Stay-bride 8 is a 5% silver 95% tin solder. I’ve used a lot of 2%/98% solder with success too.

Managing heat is the hardest part of soldering stuff like this, and it takes practice and patience. It is really easy to get everything too hot with a MAP torch, and one hard thing to learn is how to keep the torch moving and when to pull the torch away. Too hot in too big of an area and all your solder will run out of the joints. Start by Heating the whole area evenly (not hot enough to melt solder, but enough to get your big parts near that melt point. The big parts requiring more flame/time to get up to heat and you want is all heated evenly. Only get your target area just hot enough to melt solder then remove the flame soon once solder has flowed. Let it solidify before moving on too far. Less work is better when doing repairs. Too much heat can cause more problems that it fixes.

When fixing leaks, identify where the leak is. Dry your condenser as best as possible. Heat up the piece to dry out remaining moisture and let cool a bit. Apply flux liberally, hopefully so it will flow into gap when heated. (Position piece so gravity will help fill and keep solder in the gap.). Heat everything evenly to just below melt point, then remove flame and let heat even out, before applying heat to the joint and soldering. Solder follows heat, so if you get a glob in one place and need more solder next to it, heat the gap and solder should flow into that heated area. Less work and time is better when doing repairs. If you overheat the piece, you can cause more leaks.

If you can’t get solder into a gap it may mean the surface is fouled. You may need to disassemble, prep all the surfaces again, then reassemble and solder again with fresh flux/solder.

Good luck. Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels

User avatar
Twisted Brick
Distiller
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Twisted Brick » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:02 pm

OtisT wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:14 am
Bee wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:16 am
OtisT wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:23 pm
Hey Twisted Brick. I finally got around to making my first shotgun using your plates. Went really well.

18” vapor paths. The solder up was fairly easy. I started by soldering up the 4 pipes and all the plates in one shot. After dry fitting the input and output fittings I soldered up one end all at once, cooled it, then soldered up the other end. I only had to leak test it twice. :oops:
Very nice! Could you share what materials and equipment you used to solder it? My water-out still leaks a little when I put too much water pressure in it.
Just hand tools. Drill motor with step bits to drill holes, hand pipe cutters, deburring tool and files to take off rough edges. I use sanding pads to prep the surface of copper before all soldering. (Surface prep is critical) For soldering I use a simple hand MAP torch for heat. I’m using Harris Stay-brite-8 solder and Stay-clean paste solder. Stay-bride 8 is a 5% silver 95% tin solder. I’ve used a lot of 2%/98% solder with success too.

Managing heat is the hardest part of soldering stuff like this, and it takes practice and patience. It is really easy to get everything too hot with a MAP torch, and one hard thing to learn is how to keep the torch moving and when to pull the torch away. Too hot in too big of an area and all your solder will run out of the joints. Start by Heating the whole area evenly (not hot enough to melt solder, but enough to get your big parts near that melt point. The big parts requiring more flame/time to get up to heat and you want is all heated evenly. Only get your target area just hot enough to melt solder then remove the flame soon once solder has flowed. Let it solidify before moving on too far. Less work is better when doing repairs. Too much heat can cause more problems that it fixes.

When fixing leaks, identify where the leak is. Dry your condenser as best as possible. Heat up the piece to dry out remaining moisture and let cool a bit. Apply flux liberally, hopefully so it will flow into gap when heated. (Position piece so gravity will help fill and keep solder in the gap.). Heat everything evenly to just below melt point, then remove flame and let heat even out, before applying heat to the joint and soldering. Solder follows heat, so if you get a glob in one place and need more solder next to it, heat the gap and solder should flow into that heated area. Less work and time is better when doing repairs. If you overheat the piece, you can cause more leaks.

If you can’t get solder into a gap it may mean the surface is fouled. You may need to disassemble, prep all the surfaces again, then reassemble and solder again with fresh flux/solder.

Good luck. Otis
Excellent 'tutorial' Otis. Several additional principles I think can help:

As Otis so importantly mentioned, exercising patience when heating a joint is paramount, and after initial fluxing the parts to be soldered, I begin heating the joint and use a second application of flux to accomplish two things: 1) Reapplication replaces flux that may have been burned/depleted during heating 2) reapplication leaves the joint clean.
The trick I have learned in reapplication is reading the temperature of the joint by the size of the sizzle that occurs. If the sizzle is barely audible, the joint temperature is still too low to melt solder. If the sizzle is a loud blast of (toxic) flux steam, the joint may be too hot and cause any solder to bead up and refuse to flow. It doesn't take too long to learn this trick and feel it is beneficial. I started using liquid flux from advice by Corene, and is one of the reasons I continue to use it.

The other tip I have is to flatten your solder, and if the joint is very small (like the ring of solder around each vapor tube at the endplate) cut the solder (scissors) to make it even smaller. I feel this thinner/smaller portion of solder melts earlier in the heatup, helping to avoid overheating the joint, and uses less solder. Like Otis advises, less (heat and time) is preferred, especially in repair work, and this also leaves a cleaner-looking joint.

BTW, in the pic below, the smaller-diameter solder is 3/32" (again, recommended by Corene) but I couldn't find it on-line so went with 1/8". I flattened/split the 3/32" with excellent results, so flattening the 1/8" is definitely going to be SOP.
.
Solder sizes.jpg

Bee, if your coolant out port is leaking at the stem/shell joint, it can be sealed easily. I would file all of the solder I could from around the joint and then sand it clean. Flatten and split a length of solder that will wrap around the port stem in a ring. It's okay if the ends don't touch as long as they are close. Flux the stem and wrap the ring, then begin heating the shell close to the ring without touching it. Be patient and once there's enough heat to melt the solder it will flow around your joint and should seal it up tight.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer

User avatar
Bee
Novice
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Bee » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:04 am

I think the biggest problem I've been having is that the port is only ~1/2" away from the inner plate and about the same distance from a soldered repair I made to the shell.

Maybe nickel & silver bearing solder aren't good for that?

OtisT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by OtisT » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:31 am

Bee wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:04 am
I think the biggest problem I've been having is that the port is only ~1/2" away from the inner plate and about the same distance from a soldered repair I made to the shell.

Maybe nickel & silver bearing solder aren't good for that?
The close location of multiple joints sure makes that work tricky. You probably know the challenge, to heat your work location without heating the good joints near that location. If you can, mount some form of heat sync on or near the joints you don’t want to unsolder. More mass, stuff/wrap with wet rags, flame shield, etc. At the work location clean, dry and applying new flux. Fully heat the I/O fittings first, keeping the shell cool as best as you can. Heat will travel from the fitting and begin to heat up the shell where they touch. At the last second before soldering apply just a little Heat to the shell, just long enough for solder to flow then quickly remove the flame. If you pull away too fast and things harden right away, apply just another second or two of heat at a time until is flows again. let the whole thing cool.
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Durhommer » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:41 am

Try the flattened solder method twisted brick advised I also put heat into the fitting itself instead of the shell directly
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

User avatar
Oldvine Zin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:16 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Oldvine Zin » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:00 pm

Also a trick if not method I learned from a master bicycle frame builder who did all of his joints with silver was to use the torch in three dimensions, up and down through the tubes and lugs but also closer and further away to control the temp on the joint. A delicate balance.

Stay safe
OVZ

User avatar
Twisted Brick
Distiller
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Twisted Brick » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:25 pm

Oldvine Zin wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:00 pm
Also a trick if not method I learned from a master bicycle frame builder who did all of his joints with silver was to use the torch in three dimensions, up and down through the tubes and lugs but also closer and further away to control the temp on the joint. A delicate balance.

Stay safe
OVZ
Never thought of that, OVZ. Good to know.
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer

Zeotropic
Swill Maker
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:48 pm

Re: EZ Solder 2" Shotgun

Post by Zeotropic » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:28 pm


Oldvine Zin wrote:Also a trick if not method I learned from a master bicycle frame builder who did all of his joints with silver was to use the torch in three dimensions, up and down through the tubes and lugs but also closer and further away to control the temp on the joint. A delicate balance.

Stay safe
OVZ
I regularly braze copper with oxy acetylene and with it distance is especially critical because 40% of the flames heat is in the little center blue cone. It is easy to burn a hole in copper.

Post Reply