Worm efficiency?

[Fruit Squeezer]

I have run several times in my 3 gal pot and 3/8" worm set up.
I've noticed that I get better efficiency by leaving 2/3 of the worm exposed to air, and only cooling the bottom 1/3. When I fill the bucket all the way up, no heat is lost to atmosphere, and all the water quickly heats.
I fill the bucket 1/3 full and wait till output nozzle heats above room temp, then scoop out water by hand and and new water. (P.S. this process keeps me awake and attentive, instead of nodding out on late night-slow runs)

Any one else notice this annomoly?

[fizzix]

Great observation! Really like these real world proofs.
In physics, because of mass densities, water is generally considered 20x a better conductor of heat than air with both at initial room temperature.
I'm only guessing your situation proves contrary because your flake (worm/bucket) is small and confined and raising the water temperature quickly,
whereas the air above is a larger, open heat sink.
If you move to a larger flake stand, this may no longer be the case. The water just may win.

[BayouShine]

I have run several times in my 3 gal pot and 3/8" worm set up.
I've noticed that I get better efficiency by leaving 2/3 of the worm exposed to air, and only cooling the bottom 1/3. When I fill the bucket all the way up, no heat is lost to atmosphere, and all the water quickly heats.
I fill the bucket 1/3 full and wait till output nozzle heats above room temp, then scoop out water by hand and and new water. (P.S. this process keeps me awake and attentive, instead of nodding out on late night-slow runs)

Any one else notice this annomoly?

How are you determining that this is a more efficient route?

By you leaving only the bottom 1/3 of the coil covered, you lose the temperature gradient that a full worm provides. My guess is that you're constantly changing out water because it's heating up pretty quick. That's not efficient at all, and a lot of EXTRA work. Worms themselves aren't efficient to begin with and filling it up only 1/3 of the way will make even less.

If you really want to be more efficient, get a bigger worm.

[fizzix]

You're right BayouShine. I was taking it as he was just scooping out when it was done. Reading it again I see it's continual. Definitely not efficient! And proves the water consensus even more.

[Fruit Squeezer]

Just saying, that I've noticed that bleading heat to the air seems to be easier. I'm exchanging about 2 gallons of water (almost at the same rate) as 5 gallons fully submerged.

With the same heat,,, outside with a garden hose constantly displacing hot water, it seems I use less water scooping out 2 gal at a time, as opposed to trying to keep 5 gallons cool constantly.

I'll admit I'm a newb, and never claim to have found the holy grail of thermodynamics, just found it seems to work for my small set-up.
Worth trying and comparing. If it's bunk, then fill the bucket. For full disclosure, I need to mention I'm running single batch 10% low wines with no backset or arm, to get a single-run type brandy.

[Fruit Squeezer]

However, in my transition from home made wine to brandy adventures, (and with alot of study on this awesome forrum), I see a boka LM pipe and new boiler in my near future!

[BayouShine]

it seems I use less water scooping out 2 gal at a time, as opposed to trying to keep 5 gallons cool constantly.

You're not going to keep the whole 5 gallons cool. As your vapor works down the worm, it'll heat the top of the bucket first and cool more on it's way down.

Try this next time. When you're up and running, put your hand all the way to the bottom of the bucket (Don't burn yourself if it's too hot). You'll notice that it's still quite cool down there. Just because the top is steaming hot doesn't mean the whole bucket is like that.

[Fruit Squeezer]

Try this next time. When you're up and running, put your hand all the way to the bottom of the bucket (Don't burn yourself if it's too hot). You'll notice that it's still quite cool down there. Just because the top is steaming hot doesn't mean the whole bucket is like that.

Damn, guess I gotta run some more.
I'll tell my wife, "cause Bayou told me to".
Lol.

[Shine0n]

I 100% disagree that a worm is not efficient, I've been using one for many years without issue.

Although mine is in a 55 gal drum and is 3/4" OD and 5/8" ID I've never had to change my water out with cooler water, it is 50 ft long.

It may be a Pita to scoop out water all the time, IDK but to say its not as good is rubbish.

It takes up a bit of room but so does a recerk tank, then to have to add pumps, hoses, electricity if none is available. A worm is a very good condenser!

[The Baker]

I 100% disagree that a worm is not efficient, I've been using one for many years without issue.

Although mine is in a 55 gal drum and is 3/4" OD and 5/8" ID I've never had to change my water out with cooler water, it is 50 ft long.

It may be a Pita to scoop out water all the time, IDK but to say its not as good is rubbish.

It takes up a bit of room but so does a recerk tank, then to have to add pumps, hoses, electricity if none is available. A worm is a very good condenser!

Mine is very similar, I made it to use in the farm shed where there was no electricity. Worked fine, setting it up again.

Geoff

P. S. Mine has hose fittings top and bottom so no scooping... G.

[BayouShine]

I 100% disagree that a worm is not efficient, I've been using one for many years without issue.

Although mine is in a 55 gal drum and is 3/4" OD and 5/8" ID I've never had to change my water out with cooler water, it is 50 ft long.

It may be a Pita to scoop out water all the time, IDK but to say its not as good is rubbish.

It takes up a bit of room but so does a recerk tank, then to have to add pumps, hoses, electricity if none is available. A worm is a very good condenser!

If you really want to be more efficient, get a bigger worm.

Your heat sink is 10X bigger and your vapor tube is 2X the size of the OP's. It would be foolish to think it wouldn't get the job done.

[The Baker]

I'm using a trolley I was given to put my worm on wheels.

Geoff

[Kareltje]

One of the condenser I use is a ss spiral of about 8 m long and 15 mm OD, sitting in air. It needs me to run slowly, which can be usefull. And it needs no attention, when I regulate the gas properly.
When I run faster, I can cool it with wet clothes and cool by turning water to vapour, seeing the reverse process of vapour turing into alcoholic fluid. There is some poetry in it!

Your observation is interesting, to say the least.

[cede]

As said your water might seem hot on top, but it would be colder at the bottom.
Did you ever heard: heat goes up ?
Many efficient setup I saw had water coming from the bottom and hot water escaping at the top of the bucket.

In my research for a heat exchanger, I put a 2000W element in a 2 gallon jug and a coil made of 1/4 copper.
First tries where not that good even if I took time to do some maths, remember those old thermodynamics formulas and scratch my head.
I just added a tiny motor and a rod with two 1" long blades at the end and voilà !

Heat exchange is better when water is flowing around the coil.
Stagnant water can take some heat but has it heats up it's less and less heat exchanged because of the difference in temperatures that is decreasing.
So by making water flow around, heat is taken from (or given to) the coil faster.

[Fruit Squeezer]

I stand corrected.
At the advise of Bayou, I made another run.
This time I filled the bucket.
He was right, I felt down the side of the bucket, and you can feel a definite temperature gradient.

I was exchanging 4 cups of worm water per pint of output. I'm well into my 2nd pint, and can feel the heat only in the top 2" of the water.
Perhapse the fact that the water from the pipes is near freezing makes it more noteable to the touch.

P.S. running a batch of watermelon wine from October that was clean, but not "wine worthy".
This stuff is comming out like a kiss from an angel.
To think that I would have dumped it out, had it not been for this site?!?!
If it air's out ok, recipie will be sharred!

[Fruit Squeezer]

Don't know how to send a pic, sorry.

[cede]

When you hit reply, you will see a Upload attachement below the edit box.

select the file on your computer ( 800x800 pixels max ), click add the file.
When sent, you'll be able to insert it inline.

[BayouShine]

I stand corrected.
At the advise of Bayou, I made another run.
This time I filled the bucket.
He was right, I felt down the side of the bucket, and you can feel a definite temperature gradient.

I was exchanging 4 cups of worm water per pint of output. I'm well into my 2nd pint, and can feel the heat only in the top 2" of the water.
Perhapse the fact that the water from the pipes is near freezing makes it more noteable to the touch.

P.S. running a batch of watermelon wine from October that was clean, but not "wine worthy".
This stuff is comming out like a kiss from an angel.
To think that I would have dumped it out, had it not been for this site?!?!
If it air's out ok, recipie will be sharred!

I started out the same as you, with a worm in a bucket. As you get deeper into this hobby, you'll realize that the little worm in a bucket gets to be a pain in the arse. I would advise you to start reading up now on leibig condensers and how to build one. It'll be the next step in progressing through your new skill set.

[The Baker]

Bayou Shine said, ...'little worm in a bucket gets to be a pain in the arse...'

I've got a BIG worm in a cut down (two thirds) 44 gallon (55 gallon US) copper drum. No problems.

Geoff

[Kareltje]

I think it all depends on your personal situation and preferences.
When I want to run slowly and safely, I use my spiral, air-cooled condenser. It is very easy, because it has only one valve to regulate: the one on the gas. And it always works, as long as the air is not sucked out to the universe.
When I am in a hurry or want to run hard, I use my Liebig. Taking for granted the use of water.

About the use of energy: I once did some runs fast to slow, and the use of energy per distilled wash or produced low wines was the same for all runs. Give or take a fwe percent, of course.

But: when you use the heated water from a Liebig- or wormcondenser to do something useful, like doing the dishes or taking a bath, you use the same calories/Joules twice.

[Shine0n]

On the side note, I can do 2 stripping runs in the heat of summer 95f+ at 24 gal each and still not have hot water below half my worm barrel, 55 gal drum.

Although mine is a large worm it's just like any condenser given the heat put in and the size of the still compared to a 30 gal still with a 5 gal bucket with 1/4" worm, it just wouldn't work.

You need to match the size of condenser to the size of the boiler and heat put into it. The longer the coil the better the cooling from my experience.

I have 2-15.5 gal kegs, one a boiler and one a thumper, I cannot overpower my worm under any circumstances.

There are no recerk tanks, no heavy water lines, no pumps, no nothing just enough water to do the job and man does it work like a dream.

I did one time have a 30 gal barrel and would add some frozen gallon jugs of water sunk to the bottom during 2 stripping runs but that was only at the last half of the 2nd strip and it only took 2-3 jugs for that so leave some head room if needing to do so.
Note☆ I only did one at the time!

[pfshine]

All I know is the only time I will run a worm is if shtf and there is no running water. Even then I will probably make some kind of water elevator to run the rc on a plated column and have the PC as a worm. Or just have a solar powered pump. Efficiency to me is more about making my life easier and less frustrating. Making a smaller footprint in the shop and less crap to trip over is paramount as well as never bending over to switch jars. That's just me though.

[Shine0n]

Once I get old and can't bend over then I'll make a change. lol

I do have plans to build a liebig and a 2" shotgun for the hell of it and may try them sooner than later but I love the worm plus I have no other use for the 50' of coil although mash rookies spiral shotgun was and still keeps me in awe.