Dephleg controlling for flute

[Talix]

Hi there

Another details question for flute builders... I've seen quite a few clever ways people use to get some fine tune control of their dephleg when running their flutes. Needle valve on hot water out is a given, but quite a bit has changed since OD started this trend.

As I understand, it quickly became the norm to daisy chain the hot/warm water out of the PC to the cooling water-in for the RC. This makes sense in that we want to keep the dephleg at a relatively high temperature, so feeding it with semi-hot water could make it easier to keep a stable temperature while keeping flow high. However, you would still need to be able to get rid of the excess water out from the PC, so you basically end up with needing to buy more valves to control flow. Also, when the distillate starts coming out, the temperature of the PC water out will rise, causing the dephleg temperature to rise and let more vapor through, causing further heating of the PC, etc... OD used a three way valve to make it a bit easier to control on his rig, but still, it seems like a lot of perpetual adjustments... To me, it seems simplest to just separate completely the cooling water feeds and then fine-control the dephleg water in. What do you think?


Also, OD used a temperature probe underneath his dephleg, using it to maintain a steady temperature. To me, a temperature probe above the dephleg makes more sense, although you probably wouldn't get a reliable idea of what's going on below the dephleg, until the vapor actually starts to flow. Maybe that was why OD did it like he did - I am definitely not one to question his experience and expertise
More recently, it seems as if "the big boys", small commercial distillers on the still dragon forums, are simply using a temperature probe on the water our of their dephleg, and then controlling flow to keep a steady temp. I guess that makes sense too. What is consensus here? Monitor water out temp or directly monitor column temp via probes?

I have an Arduino monitoring water-in/out temp as well as flow, giving me an accurate reading of how many watts of power is being absorbed by the dephleg, so I am going to incorporate the water-out temp monitoring anyway. I just want to know if I'm better off skipping the column probes altogether.

[cede]

I've got no flute, and I'm planing one.
I've played a bit with automation and process control involving cooling control.
The way I see it, it to separate the product condenser and dephlegmator cooling lines.
Trying to keep something steady with variable input can be messy.

There are some that put 2 thermometers: 1 above and 1 below dephlegmator.
I don't know if I will do the same.
I don't think this is of any help in fact. It will just give you an indication of where you are in the heads/hearts/tails, but most of us do not use temp, just nose and taste.

Monitoring the vapors temp will not help you knowing how much reflux you have as vapor temp has nothing to do with volume of vapors.
But, for keeping a steady reflux, you can monitor the water temp into the dephlegmator or like you suggest, temp in, temp out and flow.
But just temp out should suffice to drive the still as it is linked to water flow if you have a steady heat input in the boiler.

I saw a flute using electrovalve to control the dephleg.
The process is slow so this works fine.
Valve opens and cold water enters. Valve closes, water is heated.
And there goes the cycle.
By modulating the time, you can alter the reflux.
You can also use a servo needle valve to control the flow.
There are many solutions !

[Yummyrum]

I agree with separate feeds .A needle valve is essential for sanity . A bypass valve across it for instant full reflux should the phone ring is advantagous . Another valve in series with the above to cut all reflux for stripping is also a wise addition . A three way valve and a needle can do all three .

You don't need a thermometer to run a flute . You are better off sticking a spoon of water under the spout and splashing some product in there and having a taste . That will keep you on track better than numbers . .
Theres no point adjusting for X degree if whats coming out the spout tastes like shit .

Especally to begin with .

[Talix]

I've played a bit with automation and process control involving cooling control.
The way I see it, it to separate the product condenser and dephlegmator cooling lines.
Trying to keep something steady with variable input can be messy.

There are some that put 2 thermometers: 1 above and 1 below dephlegmator.
I don't know if I will do the same.
I don't think this is of any help in fact. It will just give you an indication of where you are in the heads/hearts/tails, but most of us do not use temp, just nose and taste.

Monitoring the vapors temp will not help you knowing how much reflux you have as vapor temp has nothing to do with volume of vapors.
But, for keeping a steady reflux, you can monitor the water temp into the dephlegmator or like you suggest, temp in, temp out and flow.
But just temp out should suffice to drive the still as it is linked to water flow if you have a steady heat input in the boiler.

I’m not really concerned with automation, nor where in the run (hearts/tails) I’m at. However, I thought being able to sort of set at point, or aim at a specific point/temperature and then see the effect would be beneficial. I’m mostly interested in being able to keeping a steady reflux, or stable environment for the flute, so that when I find my sweet spot, I will be able to keep it there, for the run, and possible recreate it easily if I run something similar again. Thanks for your thoughts

I agree with separate feeds .A needle valve is essential for sanity . A bypass valve across it for instant full reflux should the phone ring is advantagous . Another valve in series with the above to cut all reflux for stripping is also a wise addition . A three way valve and a needle can do all three .

You don't need a thermometer to run a flute . You are better off sticking a spoon of water under the spout and splashing some product in there and having a taste . That will keep you on track better than numbers . .
Theres no point adjusting for X degree if whats coming out the spout tastes like shit .

Especally to begin with .

It seems like a three way valve in that configuration is a no-brainer... cheap too for what you get!

I completely agree with you on trying to arbitrarily go for some “best” temperature. I know that’s impossible. That would depend on so many things, the target spirit style, individual column design, efficiency of the dephleg, etc... But what I would like to be able to, as said above, is to find something I like, note down the current numbers, and then see how changing reflux affects taste.

It’s just to have a simple reference, rather than distilling blind. To illustrate, someone with a GPS will never be good at finding his way on his own. But give a guy a compass (a simple reference) and send him on his way - It might take him longer to get there, but he’ll be so much wiser for his time spent than if he was sent with a GPS showing him the way.
If you gave him nothing to help him find his way he might get there eventually - if he doesn’t give up - but he won’t have learnt much...

My probes/sensors would be my compass, rather than a gps or a map controlling how I run.

[raketemensch]

I don’t use a thermometer at all in my flute, so far I’ve only got my raspberry pi monitoring my ferments. I use a refractometer to keep an eye on the ABV coming out of the PC to know where I’m at in the run.

I use separate valves for the condensers, but my dephleg valve is on the cold water input. I must’ve missed the discussion on this somewhere in the 3,000 pages of the Flute Talk thread. It has worked extremely well for me, so I’m wondering what I might be missing...

[Rastus]

I followed OD with a 3 way valve.... the flow goes in my shotgun PC at the bottom, then out the top to the 3 way valve so i can divert to or away from the deflag...my water is cold. cold enough that it doesnt cause me any trouble with the deflag. the deflag is where the cooling water can get warm. but my shotgun is robust enough to knock down the vapor without raising the temp of the water. I did hear some chatter also that too cold temp at the deflag could cause some issue, but it is only a recollection from years ago ...

as for the thermometer, i have it below the deflag because i know what the temp of the vapor is below the deflag which is what i will let go through or hold for stacking out.... i never pay no mind to the thermometer during the run till the end again. but really the plates tell you what you need to know. once i see the vapor is stacked nice i creep my 3 way open and let it pass, once its passed i dont give a hoot what temp it is as long as my shotgun PC knocks it back to its liquid form, which it always does.

as for the 3 way valve... at first i was apprehensive about it, but after a little experience it became natural and not complicated at all. the deflag holds the vapor, when you open a little and a little vapor goes over, you learn and it becomes intuitive, and simple.
I built a 4" with 5 plates.... cut my run with a BOKA from 8 hours to 2.5 with a flute... but i dropped a plate cuz it was to High ABV ... was coming out 89% with 4 plates... thats my problem... i am thinking to go down to 3 plates and see how that goes... want more flavor.

all said in the building stage i was overthinking every part because i had no experience, but i PM'd the OD himself and he offered me kind words of guidance, which i took to heart, and in the end i am quite happy. no regerts

Good luck with which ever way you go

[bluefish_dist]

Interesting to hear how people run their column. Personally I run almost all by temperature. I measure the output/still head temp and use that to control my amount of reflux. Since temp is proportional to abv I do not use a parrot. Seems easier to measure the temp to get abv. Now I can't say that the way I do it is the best, but it makes product that is good.

I do make cuts afterwards and do not cut during the run.

[Rastus]

Interesting to hear how people run their column. Personally I run almost all by temperature. I measure the output/still head temp and use that to control my amount of reflux. Since temp is proportional to abv I do not use a parrot. Seems easier to measure the temp to get abv. Now I can't say that the way I do it is the best, but it makes product that is good.

I do make cuts afterwards and do not cut during the run.

thats what is so fun about the craft.

so many ways too an end, get the head and foreshots out and clip out the tails, except for the portions thereof that provide a flavor that is desired, and its all good... No matter which way we go at it, its the journey.

in a 10-12 gallon wash i pull a pint off the top and then use quarts till i see the end coming then i go smaller again so i can taste and mix back what i want to keep or not, in my big candy makers copper bowl, then store in glass growlers at 89% till I dilute, Oak, herbify, or otherwise infuse or flavor.... or just keep it plain and dilute for sippin or mixing.

with a clean spirit, the world is yours... its all amazing and beautiful.
Delicious, and intoxicating in so many ways

[Saltbush Bill]

Separate cooling lines are the way to go.
Thermometers will only serve to confuse hell out of you.
As Yummy said your better off using your sense of taste and smell.

[MoonBreath]

I've run every way imaginable...What I've found works for me is runnin by head temp, collecting specific temps, keepn reflux at 50° ish, and adjusting reflux at 180° and 182°, extending the heartcut..Ifn you can make sense there.
Properly placed, efficient rc equals accurate head temp.
I run thru parrot for piece of mind and correlation.

Gate valved top exit for cavitation prevention.

[Big Stogie]

Does anyone have a link to a suitable 3 way valve I can’t seem to locate what I think I need

[freefall]

https://www.amazon.com/Dernord-Mounting ... alve&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.amazon.com/L-Port-Forged-Ha ... dpSrc=srch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
haven't used them..I just use two valves.