Spiral liebig cooling jacket

[Alchemist75]

I'm currently employing a 3/4"x20" liebig that has a pvc jacket for my rig. It works great but the thing is kinda ugly.
I'm contemplating an all copper design and I've considered a couple variations but one in particular holds my attention. I've seen a few examples of straight liebigs that use a tightly wound coil of 1/8" copper tubing around them that serve as the cooling jacket. I'm very curious as to how well such a design would work at a 20" length. Is such a configuration horribly inefficient or might it work well? I would appreciate any opinions or knowledge with regards to such a design. It's certainly aesthetically appealing but is it a good idea?
Thoughts from the wise?

[JellybeanCorncob]

Hey Alchemist: Are you saying that the Liebig is a tube that the distillate comes out of is wrapped with 1/8 tubing and you run water through that 1/8 tubing to condense the spirit? Could you post a picture please?
What I did for mine was to copy Huskers design. It’s easy enough to make and it works great.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=9247
Good luck
JBC

[Alchemist75]

Yes, exactly that. The outer coil would effectively be the jacket. Let me se if I can track down a photo....

[jonnys_spirit]

I did the same that JBC linked except these dimensions

3/4" (jacket water path) -x- 1/2" (product path) -x- 36" w/the 14/2 solid copper wire wrapped inside the jacket.

This knocks down 5500W from my 13g boiler all day long. I made it from HD parts run. Soldering was easy and didn't take long at all.

I also made a small coil about 12" length of solid copper gnd wire (14/2) coiled around a pencil then pulled out to about 12" and put some copper scrubbies onto each end to deal with any huffing... Product comes out much easier in a nice stream or drip-drops.

Good luck!
-j

[Alchemist75]

I can't find a photo of this design. My reflux set up uses this concept as part of its condenser with there being 15 passes around the top of the column. Condenses pretty aggressively at full reflux. I'm just wondering about doing an entire liebig in that same fashion, 20-24 inches in length.

[JellybeanCorncob]

Alchemist:
What you want to accomplish seems to me as though it would not be as efficient as a Liebig with a a water cooled jacket. Or at least not any better than the previously mentioned Liebig. And winding copper tubing can be tricky. Ask anyone who has done it. I know you have lots of experience in the lab and glass stills. But if your scaling up to a larger still maybe the tried and true concepts might be the way to go. Half the fun is making the still. And the other half is making the spirits. And that’s the reward.
If you decide to make the coiled tubing Liebig please post pictures and tell us of your progress.
JBC

[shadylane]

I've seen what your calling a "Spiral liebig cooling jacket"

It was used on 3/4 inch vapor tube and I think 1/4 for the spiraled water tube
The vapor tube would have been 48" long
If it hadn't been coiled up like a worm

[Alchemist75]

@jellybean:
I'm having fun fiddling about with all new design possibilities and all new engineering concepts, steel and copper behave VERY differently from glass. My column a.k.a. "space ship antenna" needs to be completely re designed, it wasn't ever supposed to be a column in the first place, just a cooled "purifier". As I quickly discovered it was able to accept packing and grants me roughly 1.5 plates but given the space it takes up it could be giving me at least one more full plate. Happy little accident as Bob Ross would say. Ultimately it will be upgraded using the principals discussed so exhaustively in these forums. Winding copper is a bitch especially around something as tight as 3/4" but I know I could accomplish it with some patience. I managed it on my 1" "purifier". I'm certainly not set on the idea of this condenser though I've seen at least two examples of it done (wish I could find those photos!) So I know it's a thing. I realize I could probably just spare myself a headache and do a straight design but I was curious if anyone had input. No, it doesn't strike me as being an efficient design but it is a pretty design....if I can find a photo I'll post it.....

[Alchemist75]

@shady:
I bet you're referring to this:

http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... &mode=view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Alchemist75]

OK here we go, this describes it in detail and provides photos:

http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... =60&t=5950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Granted I'd probably try to make those coils tighter if I could.

[Alchemist75]

Another variation I've considered is what I've seen described as a "spinal cord" condenser. Basically a long cooling shell intersected by dozens of through condensers. I dunno, I can play around some, in the end that pvc jacketed variation will be replaced with a pure copper version regardless of how it's put together. Balancing the artist in me with the engineer is half the fun.

[steelmb]

You absolutely can not go wrong with a nice worm and flake stand. If the artist in you demands all copper, then make the flake stand out of copper. Hands down the most efficient as far as water usage is concerned unless you go air cooled. Always produces a nice temperature gradient with no huffing. More reliable and forgiving if there is a hiccup in the water supply. Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. I have 25 feet of 1/2 in tubing in a 5 gal bucket. It is dead simple and reliable. The pipe coiled around a pipe is complicated and will not be efficient. The heat will have to be transferred through two tubing walls and there will be little contact between those walls to boot. Quit overthinking things and keep them simple. This is like what one of my friends says about John Deere equipment. "Too much engineering and not enough steel."

[JellybeanCorncob]

Ok. I get you. You like that steampunk look. Haha.
Do you wear a jacket vest and have a handlebar mustache?
Searously: the look of that Liebig is cool.
JBC

[Alchemist75]

Perhaps you're right, it doesn't transfer heat as efficiently though I will point out again that a length of only 6" (15 passes) of coil around the vapor pipe is sufficient to bring my column into full reflux even when I'm over powering the thing so it clearly is capable of doing the job. The shell and tube will forever be difficult to argue with, it's very efficient with a simplistic design. I found wrapping 1/8" around 3/4" tightly to be fairly manageable earlier this evening using a vice and leather gloves though it would require heavy soldering to ensure full contact. I'm going to produce a trial section of about 5 inches and solder it up to see how it plays out. If it's sexy I may go ahead with it, maybe do a couple of through condensers at the inlet end of it just because. I know we have the tried and true for good reason but playing with a novel design might be kinda cool especially if it works.
Yes, steam punk, diesel punk and elaborate designs are sweet. You should see the leather and metal pieces I turn out . Ultimately my tastes will influence still design. Now, that weird ass column, that's up for a re design too...to be addressed after I figure out my final condenser set up.

[Kareltje]

Reading this topic I see several designs that could be called a spiral Liebig cooling jacket.
I have made one myself. Based on a 15 mm OD inner pipe and a 22 mm OD outer pipe.
Tried to anneal both, soldered a thread around the inner pipe, put them together, fixed on one side with a 22-15-15 union, and then bend the whole with a bending iron.
It worked, but I made some wrong estimations, so the result is not very useful.

On the end at the right I put a 22-15-15 union.

I wanted to make a rather short and elegant Liebig of an effective length of about 1 m but with a construction length of only 0.5 m or so. It would work: both paths are open. But equilibrium will be a problem.

[Alchemist75]

It's a clever idea to be sure if a bit tricky to execute. Not sure I'd attempt that one but then I don't have a pipe bending tool yet so I get to do things the hard way. I got that sample piece I built firmly soldered on and other than one or two globs it looks pretty clean. I bet I could do a full 20" condenser that way. When I re configure my purifier the dephlag at the top will likely employ exactly such a design, it'll probably insert through a modified reducer into a wider length of piping that will hold packing....

[steelmb]

I can understand the desire to tinker and maybe design something new, but when the flaws are pointed out showing the design will be more complicated, harder to build, more expensive and less efficient, I do not understand people's compulsion to continue with a bad idea.

[Alchemist75]

As I said, I may or may not do it this way. A straight, good old fashion liebig is easy to construct. Dunno, we'll see. I have a few things I have to refine with the whole set up. Even if I left my gear exactly as it currently is I could pull some good product, I already have, I pulled a damn nigh flavorless product off my last spirit run so my engineering thus far hasn't been a failure, just needs some polish. It'll be Kodak worthy before long.

[Alchemist75]

Oh, and here's another bizarre design concept for ya if the unusual liebig wasn't enough: a flood control/vapor speed condenser.
Down at the very base of the column just below the packing you'd have a short shell condenser controlled with a needle valve. In the event of flooding you'd open up the valve to induce reflux below the packing which would cause the vapor speed up the column to drop dramatically. Hell, you could use the thing to regulate vapor speed throughout the entire run and never have to fiddle with the heat. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Is that a good idea? Dunno, it's a novel idea for sure. Might work, might hurt efficiency or maybe just be totally redundant. Would I experiment with it? Possibly but not with what I'm currently designing. Maybe use my lab equipment first to get a picture of how that would play out.....mad scientist at heart....and an artist.

[steelmb]

Oh, and here's another bizarre design concept for ya if the unusual liebig wasn't enough: a flood control/vapor speed condenser.
Down at the very base of the column just below the packing you'd have a short shell condenser controlled with a needle valve. In the event of flooding you'd open up the valve to induce reflux below the packing which would cause the vapor speed up the column to drop dramatically. Hell, you could use the thing to regulate vapor speed throughout the entire run and never have to fiddle with the heat. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Is that a good idea? Dunno, it's a novel idea for sure. Might work, might hurt efficiency or maybe just be totally redundant. Would I experiment with it? Possibly but not with what I'm currently designing. Maybe use my lab equipment first to get a picture of how that would play out.....mad scientist at heart....and an artist.

Just turn the heat down and save some money! Bet you are one of these guys with 3 feet.

[JellybeanCorncob]

Hey Alchemist,
Good on ya mate! Curious Mind, scientist, artist. Don’t stop.
JBC

[Alchemist75]

3 feet? Goodness no, try 15" length (8" is functional packing) at a whopping 1" diameter. Grants just over a plate in practice and try as I might I can't get the thing to flood. It's either because I could get away with tighter packing or it's the condenser design, still experimenting to find out which. It's a pot still with a purifier, I'd hesitate to think of it as a column though it technically is. I wanted a design that would allow good cut and flavor control and I achieved it. If it turns out that the design is just flood resistant due to what would otherwise be considered an inefficient condenser set up then I'll just produce a cleaned up version a actually share the specs on these forums in the pot still category. It's esoteric but by gum I may have come up with something a bit clever inadvertently. Dunno, we'll see, still in trial phase but lookin good.
The only reason I had the idea about the vapor speed regulator was because of the oddly designed lyne arm I'm using on this prototype. I initially assumed I was flooding the packed section during operation but after fiddling about during a water/vinegar test it turned out to be my lyne arm. I couldn't figure out why the gurgling would stop when I upped the reflux until I disconnected the lyne arm during the run. Silly me. I kinda wondered if that was gonna be a problem when I built it....as it is this thing is ugly, needs a re work but it appears to be exactly what I was after.

[Wolfairious]

Have you looked at the convoluted or crimped style? That is how I built mine and it works great. If you wrap a spiral wire around the outside of the inner jacket you are just disturbing the flow of the water and the product steam/condensate just goes straight through. In a convoluted design the water and the steam/condensate are both turbulent. That is how I built mine and love it and it is simpler to make.
The pictures are not mine but some I just grabbed off the web. Mine is 1/2 inside of 3/4

[jonnys_spirit]

Doesn’t that promote smearing as the condensate pools in the many little troughs?

Cheers!
-jonny

[Wolfairious]

Doesn’t that promote smearing as the condensate pools in the many little troughs?

I run mine at almost 60 deg and mine isn't crimped quite as much so I don't think it "pools" much. But hadn't really considered that. Something to think about.

[The Baker]

Doesn’t that promote smearing as the condensate pools in the many little troughs?

Cheers!
-jonny

Only if the condenser is horizontal or close to that?

Pictures I have seen of home stills show the condenser angle from vertical (which is popular) to 45 degrees (halfway between vertical and horizontal) which would seem, logically, to allow the condensate to fall by gravity without lodging in those twists?
(But if in doubt make it steeper?)

Geoff

[shadylane]

Has anyone done scientific experiments with the liebig angle.
Anyone want to volunteer
Also JMHO
I don't think crimping makes much difference
But it does increase the odds of a blockage

[acfixer69]

Has anyone done scientific experiments with the liebig angle.
Anyone want to volunteer
Also JMHO
I don't think crimping makes much difference
But it does increase the odds of a blockage

I think that if thought out right " long enough" you don't need to crimp it. It is just a smear point if not steep enough.