Shotgun Proportions

Anything cooling/condenser related.

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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by Deplorable »

I dont have anything to base it on but my own personal experiences with my equipment, but I think being able to maintain the same vapor velocity from the top of the boiler all the way to the point of condensation has improved the overall efficiency of my still, and character of my distillate.
But with just a handful of runs on my old equipment before building a new still, there's a good chance there are other process improvements that contributed to the character.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by Demy »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:27 am I dont have anything to base it on but my own personal experiences with my equipment, but I think being able to maintain the same vapor velocity from the top of the boiler all the way to the point of condensation has improved the overall efficiency of my still, and character of my distillate.
But with just a handful of runs on my old equipment before building a new still, there's a good chance there are other process improvements that contributed to the character.
Thanks, experiences are important.I was referring precisely to these practical aspects.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by StillerBoy »

Demy.. I've read the first post of this thread, and you make no mention on what the shotgun condenser you are considering is to be use on a pot still or reflux column set.. cause you seem to be confused with refluxing column activity.. as most of explanation has been oriented more for reflux column..

If to be used on a pot setup the shotgun will be of greater benefit over a liebig..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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StillerBoy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:40 am Demy..
...If to be used on a pot setup the shotgun will be of greater benefit over a liebig..

Mars
That is a very good point Mars.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by Demy »

It will be for both of us. I try to understand the differences with the liebig (apart from the better efficiency). It's just out of my curiosity.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by StillerBoy »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:01 am That is a very good point Mars.
A shotgun has much greater efficiency over a liebig many times..

The reason liebig are popular is in its ease of building them.. yeah they do work, but they are not efficient..

Shotgun take a back seat only because of greater building skills required to put one together.. but that should not be a deterrence for not buying one already made.. a 2" shotgun is relatively easy to put together.. whereas the 1 1/2" shotgun is considerably more taxing to build, but is the best size overall for the hobby of stills we used..

They are popular on flute style mainly because of the higher vapor volumes it can generate, which is due in part because of the pipe size flutes are made of.. the bigger the column size is, the more efficient the PC needs to be.. another style where a shotgun is of great benefit is a CM with a dephlegmator which operated very much in the same manner as a flute..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Deplorable wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:27 am I dont have anything to base it on but my own personal experiences with my equipment, but I think being able to maintain the same vapor velocity from the top of the boiler all the way to the point of condensation has improved the overall efficiency of my still, and character of my distillate.
The importance of maintaining a uniform vapor velocity from boiler to condenser was one of the first principles I learned here. Namely, not to reduce a lyne arm diameter from the (pot) still head only to resume larger going back into the condenser. I'm not knowledgeable of the vapor path reduction ratios that characterize a 'choke point', but it appears the same thing might have occurred with the lyne arm connection to the riser on the still you just upgraded from. Simply enlarging the vapor path to say, 2" seems to play a significant role in the speed at which the still will produce.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by StillerBoy »

Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:04 am Simply enlarging the vapor path to say, 2" seems to play a significant role in the speed at which the still will produce.
In agreement on that point.. providing the PC is built to respond to the coming vapors.. cause that the big problem with a liebig..

The least restriction created in the vapor path, the more efficient the operation will be.. what that translate to is less power is required in the production of vapor and less pressure required to push the vapor along..

Once that principal is understood then the unit is built with that intent..

But beginner are to much is a rush to see that, plus they are not aware of vapor behavior and most don't care as long something comes out the spout.. that is the down side of the hobby.. and when they are in their ways, they are almost impossible to re-train, as their answer is "it working that's good enough"..

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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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So, from the comments above I deduce that I guessed it, that is, a rifle has other advantageous aspects that interface with the column. After all, my questions weren't totally stupid.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Demy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:22 pm I deduce that I guessed it, that is, a rifle has other advantageous aspects that interface with the column. After all, my questions weren't totally stupid.
It would make things a lot easier if you could use the right word.. a shotgun condenser is not a rifle..

The statement "other advantageous aspects that interface with the column" is erroneous... a shotgun condenser's only function is to condense vapors and cool down distillate.. it's ability to do such make it superior to a liebig only because of its ability to limit the restriction of the vapors at the point of being condensed..

The shotgun condenser is a very condenser for the following style of stills, namely a flute, a CM and a pot setup.. and the other point that a shotgun condenser has working for itself, it does not have to be all that big and heavy.. a 1 1/2" x 14 - 18" will serve all the needs require at the hobby level..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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So I just finished a spirit run on some bourbon and decided to find out just how much cooling water my shotgun takes. I put the discharge hose in a bucket and tracked water usage over a 4 hour spirit run.
Some details: Charge was 6.5 gallons of 28% ABV low wines, 13 gallon boiler, gas fired. 2 inch pot still all the way to the shotgun. 3 hours and 47 minutes from first drips to killing the flame looking at my notes. Total water used for cooling, was 15.3 gallons maintaining a temp gradient with the shell warm about 5 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the top. Distillate temp was 13.5* C. Our tap water is pretty friggin cold right now out of the hose. I guess I should have measured the temp of that too, but I didn't. I imagine in the summer when the tap water is warmer, I'd use a good bit more.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Deplorable wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:18 pm So I just finished a spirit run on some bourbon and decided to find out just how much cooling water my shotgun takes. I put the discharge hose in a bucket and tracked water usage over a 4 hour spirit run.
Some details: Charge was 6.5 gallons of 28% ABV low wines, 13 gallon boiler, gas fired. 2 inch pot still all the way to the shotgun. 3 hours and 47 minutes from first drips to killing the flame looking at my notes. Total water used for cooling, was 15.3 gallons maintaining a temp gradient with the shell warm about 5 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the top. Distillate temp was 13.5* C. Our tap water is pretty friggin cold right now out of the hose. I guess I should have measured the temp of that too, but I didn't. I imagine in the summer when the tap water is warmer, I'd use a good bit more.
I'd say you nailed it. Thanks for taking the time to track usage.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:55 am I think we should remember that not everyone is trying to scrimp on water flow.....many of us recycle our cooling water.
No matter if you use very little flow or a fast flow.....you will end up with the same amount of heat in your water reservoir at the end of the run.
The two un-baffled shottys I own will knock down 15 and 20 L per hour respectively....probably more with higher water flow.
How many hobbyists really need more than that ?
Good point Bill. It's all about creating efficiencies, I think. The magic of baffles allows the shotgun to be built shorter and run at maximum efficiency forever. Like the unbaffled shotty in this picture, I don't know how long it is, but I have a feeling a 20" baffled shotgun would do itself proud. Shorter, lighter, highly efficient. If you ever plan to build a 4 x 1/2" shotgun in the future, contact me. I'll be happy to send you a set of flanged plates and baffles, on me.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:35 pm The magic of baffles allows the shotgun to be built shorter
Yes for sure a valid reason for increased performance would be space saving.
Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:35 pm If you ever plan to build a 4 x 1/2" shotgun in the future, contact me. I'll be happy to send you a set of flanged plates and baffles, on me.
I doubt that I will be needing to build any more stills.
1 small pot/ gin still on a 28 Litre boiler, one larger 2 and 1/2 inch pot that fits my big boiler, 1x 3 inch boka, 1x 4 inch 4 plate column and a 5 plate modular 6 inch column is probably more that I need now.
In the unlikely case that the build bug does bite again in the future I will remember your kind offer.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Deplorable wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:18 pm So I just finished a spirit run on some bourbon and decided to find out just how much cooling water my shotgun takes. I put the discharge hose in a bucket and tracked water usage over a 4 hour spirit run.
Some details: Charge was 6.5 gallons of 28% ABV low wines, 13 gallon boiler, gas fired. 2 inch pot still all the way to the shotgun. 3 hours and 47 minutes from first drips to killing the flame looking at my notes. Total water used for cooling, was 15.3 gallons maintaining a temp gradient with the shell warm about 5 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the top. Distillate temp was 13.5* C. Our tap water is pretty friggin cold right now out of the hose. I guess I should have measured the temp of that too, but I didn't. I imagine in the summer when the tap water is warmer, I'd use a good bit more.
Thanks for gathering and providing valuable info..

I would like to point out a few things.. 15.3 gal(US) = 58.14L of water used or 256ml or 1/4L per min.. that is efficient.. but it must be properly quantified.. it was a spirit run using a pot setup with a boiler load of 6.5 gal at 28% abv done over a 3.47 hr..

Another point is the distillate temp at the output being 13.5C or 56.7*F.. you surely have cold water, which will effect the overall performance of a condenser.. warmer water will require more flow to achieve the same efficiency.. your water must be closer to the surface as my water does not go that cold, but the requirement in my area is the line are to be 7' down.. my winter water temp is 60 - 60.5*F and summer is 70 - 70.5*F.. and yes I do use about a tenth more water flow in the summer based on the setting on the needle valve..

But you still room for improvement on the water usage.. you state the output temp of the distillate being at 56.7*F, which I would assume to also represent the true water temp.. if that is the case, it is possible to reduce flow even more till the output temp are around the 68 - 70*F which is normal ambient temp anyway..

The exercise demonstrates how efficient a shotgun condenser is, in both the vapor condensing and distillate cooling abilities, plus reduction of water usage..

One must also remember that the numbers quoted here will not apply to a reflux column run, or a stripping run.. one can not mix and match.. each activity will requires different flow, and that just show the important of water temp at the inlet..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by Durhommer »

Nice conversation guys very useful information about the way to properly run a shotgun condenser
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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All great points Mars. More finite control would be needed before I can squeeze any more efficiency out of my condenser. Your point of a needle valve was something I chuckled to myself about as I was dialing in my water settings. :lol: some day, I'll grab a couple.
Like you said, this is just one spirit run in the cold of a pacific northwest winter. Mileage will certainly vary.
I've got 100l of SSS wash to strip and reflux to get some more information, but again, it's only data from single runs under conditions on a given day.
There are many variables that impact water use on any given run.
Side by side number from a commonly sized liebig condenser would be interesting to also capture and compare.
It was just something else to occupy my time while tending the still.
As I continue to improve the operational efficiency of my still house I'll eventually have to tackle water use, but next up for me is building a still controller and converting to electric. I'm tired of dicking around with propane tanks.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Deplorable wrote: Side by side number from a commonly sized liebig condenser would be interesting to also capture and compare.
I will get accurate number on mine if it is common enough. It is 4' 6".
I run about 5 gallons of water for 5 gallons of mash stripped. I aim for and waste water temperature of 150°f but my flow control is a totally pathetic ball valve so I need to upgrade that.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:27 am
But you still room for improvement on the water usage.. you state the output temp of the distillate being at 56.7*F, which I would assume to also represent the true water temp.. if that is the case, it is possible to reduce flow even more till the output temp are around the 68 - 70*F which is normal ambient temp anyway..

The exercise demonstrates how efficient a shotgun condenser is, in both the vapor condensing and distillate cooling abilities, plus reduction of water usage..
Now there's a thought: having the control to maximize water usage and calibrate a still's output temp to match the Proof Hydrometer and skip any temperature correction altogether.

Taking 'adjusting power to get a pencil-lead stream' to the next level.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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I can do that in warmer weather when the water temperature from the spigot is warmer with just the controls I have. But I am at the very lower end of the 1/2 inch gate valves adjustability when the city water is this cold.
Unfortunately for me, Mars is right, and if I want to chase more efficiency from the condenser, and get the product temp at the temp the hydrometer is calibrated for, I need a needle valve.
Or, maybe if I lowered the water pressure at the manifold some more?
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Your starting to catch on Deplorable.. their lots in the details.. which what I enjoy the most..

3/8" brass needle valve are cheap and work well for that purpose..

Doing some strip runs today using my 1 1/2" x 12" shotgun.. will post the results later..

Enjoy the journey..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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I started the construction, I recovered a piece of 38mm stainless steel pipe (former column) because 30mm was too narrow even for 3/8 pipes. I chose 4 3/8 tubes which fit well. I tried to do my best, I only made a few constructions with copper (I practically took a torch in my hand due to the distillation). The pieces are all recycled from other constructions so don't expect big things. The perforated plates are made from pieces of pipe, the 3/8 pipes have been straightened from the skein.
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I had to choose a design for the deflectors applicable to the dimensions, I thought of a simple thing.
20210227_152018.jpg
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There are other things that I will do as soon as I have some time.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:29 am Your starting to catch on Deplorable.. their lots in the details.. which what I enjoy the most..

3/8" brass needle valve are cheap and work well for that purpose..

Doing some strip runs today using my 1 1/2" x 12" shotgun.. will post the results later..

Enjoy the journey..

Mars
Im interested in the results, Ive thought about building a mini still all 1 1/2" on a 3 gallon boiler just to play with. I'm not a gin drinker, so aside from small test batches, I wouldnt have a lot of use for it (that I can think of yet). I was thinking it would be fun to build a 1 1/2", 3 tube shotgun about 10 to 12" overall length. But like I said earlier, the priority now is converting to electric.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Im interested in the results, Ive thought about building a mini still all 1 1/2" on a 3 gallon boiler just to play with. I'm not a gin drinker, so aside from small test batches, I wouldnt have a lot of use for it (that I can think of yet). I was thinking it would be fun to build a 1 1/2", 3 tube shotgun about 10 to 12" overall length. But like I said earlier, the priority now is converting to electric.
It also works well for an essential oil still.
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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As stated in the previous post, after reviewing what has all been stated in this thread on shotgun efficiency.. decided to experiment some.. dud some yrs back, but haven't made to many notes on it..

Using the 12" x 1.5" shotgun built for my flute, decided to try it in a stripping run today.. reason is that stripping runs are done using much more power than one would use in a spirit run.. assemble the pieces already made to make a setup to be able to try it out.. end up with a 3" reduced to 1.5" to fit the shotgun..

So here the fact as per the two stripping runs of 27L of 11 - 12% abv sugar wash which both runs gave me 4.5L of distillate at 50% abv overall..

Water temp at the tap 59.5*F.. heated up time using a 5500w was 15 min.. from first drop to stoppage of run 45 min using 3000w of power..

The runs were definitely quicker than using my 24" liebig on a 2" column by 15 min per run.. but this has to be explored further, based on the fact that I was using a 3" column setup vera my regular 2" setup..

The shotgun was able to condense the vapors and cool down the distillate really quite well.. at 3000w, with water temp of 59.5*F, and outlet water temp 110*F, using 450ml per min of water flow, the distillate was at 59.5*F and the shotgun temp gradient were as follow.. top very hot, from 3" down to 6" (half way) warm, and from mid section on down cold..

Here's where it become interesting.. to increase the distillate to 70*F, needed to reduced water flow to 350 ml per min, but the outlet water temp rose to 140*F, and the gradient of the shotgun was hot enough to be able to hold at 4.5", gradient between hot to hold and cold was 4", and cold for the rest or 3.5"..

So conclusion.. a 1.5" x 12" shotgun will knock down lots of vapors.. a 2" shotgun will be even more powerful and not needed to be any than maybe 16 - 20" for our hobby purpose.. another point is the fact that by reducing the back pressure, it thereby speeded up the run over a reduction down to 1/2"..

Will be exploring how it differ using a 2" setup reduced to 1.5".. will need to make some new adapter for that... and by the way I don't strip hard and fast, 3000w is where I find it to best overall..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Looks good for first attempt.. 1.5" with 4 - 3/8" tube should work good, at least much better than liebig..

I would have done the baffle plates cutout somewhat different.. water always go where there is the least resistant.. the V notch are on the big size and are in the wrong place.. so that means the water will be cooling the outside more that the tubes, and that where the heat is occurring.. for future builder, there should have been a small hole instead of the V notch and 3 - 4 small V notch around the tube hole opening.. by doing so, the water is forced to go along the tubes which would allow the tubes to be cooled better..

The other thing I want to point is that stainless stain with copper baffles have a tendency to leak after a while.. it's mention here by few members who had one of those state that they leak as they crack.. so keep an eye out for that..

Another point that the distillate end tube should been cut at an angle with the pointed end aline in the center.. this cause the distillate to fall toward the center..

Mars
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by Demy »

Mars
Thanks for your suggestions. I made the notches there because there was some space, I think there will be some degree of mixing anyway, there are 3 deflectors in 30cm in length as suggested. In the end where the product comes out I left the longer (protruding) tubes so that they would help the dripping, did you mean this?
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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Demy wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:37 am In the end where the product comes out I left the longer (protruding) tubes so that they would help the dripping, did you mean this?
Yeah.. it always a good thing to cut the end at an angle and a little longer like a half inch.. you will also need to drill one or two small holes near those ends.. look at the pictures of my built and you will see what I mean.. the holes allow the distillate to flow freely otherwise its possible to form a vacuum..

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Re: Shotgun Proportions

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StillerBoy wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:03 am
Demy wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:37 am In the end where the product comes out I left the longer (protruding) tubes so that they would help the dripping, did you mean this?
Yeah.. it always a good thing to cut the end at an angle and a little longer like a half inch.. you will also need to drill one or two small holes near those ends.. look at the pictures of my built and you will see what I mean.. the holes allow the distillate to flow freely otherwise its possible to form a vacuum..

Mars
I understand, I looked .... I didn't notice those holes. The tubes are long but I have not drilled the holes. I closed the end with a funnel shaped piece of brass. The product outlet will be open to the air, should I still make those holes?
Edit: thinking about it I understand what you mean, the vacuum that the distillate could create in the lower "chamber".
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Re: Shotgun Proportions

Post by Demy »

Yesterday I completed my small and inexpensive creation. I did a cleaning run and it works great. I think even the small size of a condenser shotgun works beautifully.
20210301_152747.jpg
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