Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

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TwoSheds
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Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by TwoSheds »

All,

I've seen several references saying a needle valve gives better control over flow to a dephlegmator, which totally makes sense, but haven't been able to find info on what to look for in a needle valve. Is something like this appropriate:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Winters-Ins ... edle-Valve

They certainly run pretty broad in pricing, and I'm hoping this isn't another $50-100 part, but...

Thanks.
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by StillerBoy »

I use a 3/8" brass needle valve for controlling the water flow to my unit, as all my water lines are 3/8", and about 6 bucks in my part to the world..

The importance of being able to control the flow in minute adjustment can not be over stated went used in a reflux column setup..

Mars
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Uncle B
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by Uncle B »

150% yes, use a needle valve - it's helped me tremendously. And one suggestion I saw in a post from a few years back was to add a flow meter as well - it'll help see exactly how much you're changing the flow rate, and eventually give you an idea of where you want to be at points in your run. This for me was as helpful as the needle valve.

I picked up this one, and it works great:
https://www.amazon.com/BNYZWOT-Liquid-F ... ial&sr=1-1

The catch with flow meters is that they have different flow rate ranges - depending on your coolant temp, you might want one with a higher or lower flow range. I've been using my house cold water line, which is a steady 45-50°F, on a 1/2 inch coolant line, so I generally only need a trickle running through to keep it at partial reflux. Your setup might be different.

--Unc B
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by OtisT »

TwoSheds. What is the max power you can apply to your still? You want to ensure you can provide enough flow to knock down all vapor when you are at full power (100% reflux).

I have run a few 5500w columns that use a 1/4” needle valve for coolant flow control. I used those cheep brass valves with no problems.

A 1/4” valve should give you more than enough flow unless you are running well over 5500w or if your cooling water is not cold.

Another factor to consider is how efficient you condenser is. If your dephlag is a shotgun style there should be no problem. If your dephlag is a short coil with limited surface area or a short dwell time, a little more flow (like a 3/8” valve) may be desirable.

Otis
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TwoSheds
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by TwoSheds »

Thanks all, good info!

My larger still will be max 4500w, but suspect I'll only need that for heat up at only 15 gallons so it seems like a 1/4 or 3/8 would work. 3/8 might give me the extra oompf needed with the limited area on the Brewhaus dephlegmator.

The flow meter looks pretty cool too! Will keep that in mind but probably not jump on that yet.

Thanks again!
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by StillerBoy »

TwoSheds wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:00 am The flow meter looks pretty cool too! Will keep that in mind but probably not jump on that yet.
Flow meter are nice to look at, but are not the better tool to use.. a temp probe is of more value to managing the right flow for the desired temp required at the RC..

As stated, flow rate don't take into consideration the temp of water.. and what is important in operating an RC is maintaining a stable outlet temp.. and that why a needle valve is of value in being able to manage minute adjustments..

Mars
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by TwoSheds »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:04 am Flow meter are nice to look at, but are not the better tool to use.. a temp probe is of more value to managing the right flow for the desired temp required at the RC..
I don't have the experience to argue, but if your water and ambient temps were consistent I would think flow rate would get you in the ballpark of the same results...

Where would you measure temp? In, above, or below the dephleg? Water input? Water output?

Thanks.
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I think a flow meter is over complicating things.....the main thing you need to know is how much booze is leaving the still at what speed.
That speed /quantity will be dependent on what the water flow to the condenser is.......because it effects defleg temperature.
If the flow meter being used also acts as a finely adjustable tap / valve then yes its of use.
If not its not.
Dont get hung up on water temps.....or other temps for that matter.
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by StillerBoy »

TwoSheds wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:09 am but if your water and ambient temps were consistent I would think flow rate would get you in the ballpark of the same results...
You are not fermenting when running an RC.. yes ambient temp has a bearing or effect on fermentation but not when running a reflux column..

Yeah running a reflux column by having a water rate within a ballpark flow will allow the still to operate.. but how consistence will that be..

The temp probe should be monitor at the outlet side so as to have a stable temp for the refluxing activity occurring within the packing packed in the column..

Mars
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by victor »

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202107 ... b14d38.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202107 ... dfa3ec.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202107 ... ddaa84.jpg[/IMG]


I didn’t want to start a new thread and not trying to high jack this one, just a question on the same topic.. I purchased a new plate column and I’ve read that a needle valve is required vs a lever valve for more control.. my question is.. will this will be enough flow through a 4” dephlegmator? My older column I ran the lever valve wide open to cool the vapor? Is This style of dephlegmator that much more efficient?

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Victor
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by Hambone »

I use a 1/4 inch needle valve. It’s more than enough…
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Experience is usually the result of bad judgement..
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Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by victor »

The opening on this one is tiny.. this is 1/2 inch to screw into dephlegmator. Definitely not a 1/2 inch opening though? Didn’t know they came like this?[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202107 ... 21444e.jpg[/IMG]
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by Saltbush Bill »

victor wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:29 pm The opening on this one is tiny.. this is 1/2 inch to screw into dephlegmator. Definitely not a 1/2 inch opening though?
All that I have seen are built that way.
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by OtisT »

Assuming your dwell time is not an issue and you have a steady flow of cool water, the 1/4 valve has more than enough flow to knock down 5500W.

If your water is recirculated and there is a chance the input water temp will increase throughout the run, you may want to get a 3/8” needle valve for increased flow rate. Not much more cost for the added flow.

If your dwell time is low, you may want to consider the 3/8” valve.

I use the cheep brass needle valves available at most any hardware store and have I no problems with them.

Otis
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by shadylane »

I'm not sure what size needle valve I'm using.
The valve was originally used to screw onto the top of a small Freon can.
Another valve I use is off a torch.
If not running more than 5kw and the dephg is efficient, a 1/8" valve should be big enough.
You can compromise, have a small valve for better control.
And turn down the power when 100% reflux is needed :wink:
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I've got 3/8" needles spec'd and haven't run them yet but they feel more than adequate for full knockdown and perhaps not fine enough for fine tuning. I mated them with a 3/8" NPT to 1/2" sweat fitting to plum in for this system. I suspect that it'll work fine but 1/4" will be a little better range in the throw of the valve from "full off" to "just enough".. Smaller and less weight would be better as far as size goes for me so next time I'll search far-and-wide for what I really want lol...

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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by Hambone »

I have a 4 inch column and can get full reflux with one full turn on a 1/4 inch needle valve…
Good judgement is the result of experience.

Experience is usually the result of bad judgement..
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by victor »

Thanks for the feed back, went with a 3/8 needle and going to using recirculated water with 5000 btu a/c condenser to keep it cool.. I can’t attach a video but it’s a trickle of water coming through. Is that enough or is my pond pump to weak? says 13ft. Lift going through 3/8 OD flex line.
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Re: Needle Valve for Dephlegmator

Post by OtisT »

victor wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:18 am Thanks for the feed back, went with a 3/8 needle and going to using recirculated water with 5000 btu a/c condenser to keep it cool.. I can’t attach a video but it’s a trickle of water coming through. Is that enough or is my pond pump to weak? says 13ft. Lift going through 3/8 OD flex line.
Define trickle. Easy way to do this is time how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket and do the math. (Any size of buck, just something you can measure so your math is correct.).

Condensers can vary in efficiency. On my CM I typically run at 3.5 to 4 lpm for 100% reflux, which is actually overkill. When I’m fractioning around 8 to 1 at 5500 watts, my flow is down around 2 lpm. That is a cool/consistent flow of city water.

Otis
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