Graham product condenser?

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MurphysLaw
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Graham product condenser?

Post by MurphysLaw »

I have an idea for a short, squat Graham product condenser. I’ve searched everywhere for someone else who’s done it already and I’m finding nothing, which tells me it’s either a genius innovation or a really terrible idea. I’m guessing it’s the second, but I can’t see why yet.

Background: I’ve been running a cheap Chinese pot still for a couple years. It works pretty well, but I’m ready to start slowly upgrading. I’m hoping to solve 2 challenges here - 1) no running water, but I do have a roughly 300 gallon rainwater reservoir. 2) the need to store everything very compactly between runs. A liebig won’t work for my space as it will be too long to stow. Also, my plan seems more fun.

The proposed solution: I already plan to create a new condenser worm in a bigger container. The one that came with my still is the crappiest component of the whole thing. It occurred to me that I can just put a lid on the worm’s container and then circulate through water from my rainwater reservoir with a small on demand pump. I’ve got an 8 qt aluminum stockpot that I plan to house the worm in. I’ll add a gasket and clamps to keep the lid on securely.

So what can go wrong here and how would you do it better?.
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by NormandieStill »

If you put an overflow outlet at the top of your stockpot and your reservoir is lower than the stockpot, no need for a water tight lid. You might want to consider putting in baffles to ensure that water flow is around the coil and doesn't just run straight up the middle of the pot.
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shadylane
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by shadylane »

MurphysLaw wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:13 pm
I have an idea for a short, squat Graham product condenser. I’ve searched everywhere for someone else who’s done it already and I’m finding nothing,
For what we need a Graham condenser has a problem.
Much like a traditional worm, the vapor has to flow through the coiled part.
This doesn't make for a compact product condenser.
If you try to scale it down, the vapor path "tubing ID" gets smaller, and more prone to blockage.
I'd recommend a shotgun Liebig or better yet a Dimroth condenser.. :wink:
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The pro's and con's of using Graham condensers has been hashed over a lot of times before.
A search bought these up app.php/googlesearch?cx=012980085383122 ... itesearch= scroll down past the first few till you come to the HD stuff.
MurphysLaw
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by MurphysLaw »

NormandieStill wrote:If you put an overflow outlet at the top of your stockpot and your reservoir is lower than the stockpot, no need for a water tight lid. You might want to consider putting in baffles to ensure that water flow is around the coil and doesn't just run straight up the middle of the pot.
Thanks NS. All good thoughts. Unfortunately the rainwater reservoir is above ground. If I want the condenser higher than the reservoir my still would have to be way up high. I will definitely take a look at the baffling though.
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by MurphysLaw »

shadylane wrote:
MurphysLaw wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:13 pm
I have an idea for a short, squat Graham product condenser. I’ve searched everywhere for someone else who’s done it already and I’m finding nothing,
For what we need a Graham condenser has a problem.
Much like a traditional worm, the vapor has to flow through the coiled part.
This doesn't make for a compact product condenser.
If you try to scale it down, the vapor path "tubing ID" gets smaller, and more prone to blockage.
I'd recommend a shotgun Liebig or better yet a Dimroth condenser.. :wink:
Hi SL. What I’m looking at here would actually be the size and shape of a traditional worm. Just instead of being in an open bucket, the bucket will have a water tight lid. The worm will be about 11” diameter and 6” tall (3/8” tubing) So I should avoid any crimping issues.
MurphysLaw
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by MurphysLaw »

Saltbush Bill wrote:The pro's and con's of using Graham condensers has been hashed over a lot of times before.
A search bought these up app.php/googlesearch?cx=012980085383122 ... itesearch= scroll down past the first few till you come to the HD stuff.
Bill, I did read those before posting, but it seems they’re all trying to make a long, thin condenser without recirculating water. I’m hoping for the opposite. I’d like to make a traditional sized worm in a bucket and just seal it up and recirculate water from a giant barrel. I know I’m reducing the risk of dangerously decreasing my vapor tube ID by having a nice wide (~11”) coil, but I’m wondering if I’m introducing any new problems that I’m overlooking.
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by still_stirrin »

MurphysLaw wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:55 am… I’m wondering if I’m introducing any new problems that I’m overlooking.
If the rainwater barrel is too cold, the water in your “closed and sealed” worm could be turbulent enough to cause “huffing” inside of the worm. And I suspect the ID of the worm tube is small (<10mm) such that it could create the vapor collapse within the tube.

The advantage of a large flake, the vessel around a worm, is that the water is slow moving and it creates a temperature gradient along the length of the worm’s coil. A small flake with the water pumped from a larger reservoir could upset that gradient. So, size matters.

You asked if you could be “introducing new problems”, and I’ve outlined at least one.
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MurphysLaw
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by MurphysLaw »

Still Stirrin - I hear you about the cold water! What do you think about a ~12mm dia tube in a 7.5 L flake (thanks for the terminology) with a slow flow? Not sure what that flow rate would be yet. Would probably have to fiddle with it to get it right
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EricTheRed
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by EricTheRed »

I initially used a home made flake.
Too much space
I would think a 30cm x 2" shotgun would be best for you
Takes up almost no space when running or packed away
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by Bryan1 »

I bought a Graham Condensor for my glass still setup as the supplied glass pipe in pipe on got the collection vessel too hot to touch, I found in pot still mode it did form a slight vacuum and when tried it using the reflux column it shot up and smashed due to the graham condensor constantly a blockage and the pressure built up.

So either a copper/SS pipe in pipe or a shotgun condensor is the way to go as the last thing we want in a running still is a pressure buildup as sooner or later KABOOM bye still and everything around including the premises the still was in.

Cheers Bryan
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by Yummyrum »

There are many ways to do it .

Basically , you need to condense “X” amount of vapour produced by “Y” amount of heat .

That means that you need “Z” length of copper tube .

You can make that one big long length … a Liebig .

You can cut it up into two or three lengths and make a long shotgun condenser .

You can cut it up into many short lengths and make a very short multi-tube Shotgun condenser .

You could make a long skinny coil in small shell of water .

You could make a short fat coil in a squat shell of water .

All of these will mean you have to move water through the condenser shell to remove the heat .

All of them will work … after all … you have the same length of copper pipe transferring heat from the vapour to the water .

You can have the water flowing through as fast as you like …. But … if its too fast , the condenser will huff …. not a problem , just an inconvenience .

Best condensers are adjusted so coolant flow creates cold at bottom , hot at top .
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BlueSasquatch
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Old photograph but here is a 6 gal pot still, with a worm tube that is too small to work well

Image

I use a bucket with cold water, higher than my flake-stand, and with a small diameter tube, I continually siphon this cold water, into the bottom of the flake stand. The hot water overflows the sides, and either lands on the ground, or what I've done mostly, is have a barrel or bucket under it, and the overflow goes in that bucket. Which also gets siphoned out, I've got 4 or 5 buckets of water and they cool off enough by the time I need to re-fill the top bucket.

I've not got the flow at perfect equilibrium with the heat, so I occasionally have to force more water than the small hose does already, but I can feel the temperature on the side of the flake stand, too hot to touch at the top, and nice and cold on the bottom, stays that way during the hearts, when I hit tails, it's hot all the way down just about. Anyways I frequently place my hands along the outside and note how far down the heat has progressed.

Long story short, but I've considered adding height to the flake-stand sides, putting a top on it, two ports high/low, and pumping water through it instead, as to not have as large of a mess. Which sounds pretty on-par with what you're wanting to do. And I think it would work fine, if you pay attention to the temp gradient, pump water into the bottom, but at a slow enough rate that you do indeed get a temp gradient, so some sort of valve on the inbound side should help that.
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MurphysLaw
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by MurphysLaw »

Thanks for the words of encouragement, ’Squatch and Yummy. Gonna go ahead and do it. Will let y’all know how it goes.
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Re: Graham product condenser?

Post by bunny »

MurphysLaw wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:13 pm A liebig won’t work for my space as it will be too long to stow. Also, my plan seems more fun.

So what can go wrong here and how would you do it better?.
I work with relatively small stilling equipment.
I would re-evaluate the Liebig condenser.
My 15" long 3/4" over 1/2" Liebig knocks down 1500 watts during stripping with ease.

If you need to hide your equipment there are many possibilities.
Mine would fit in the kitchen drawer with the spatulas and tater masher if I had to hide it.
You could even just drop it into the 300 gallon tank, or lay it in the gutter on the shed. :D
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