cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

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Orpheus123
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cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

OK, so I've been at this for about 6 months, and I've done probably about 10 or 12 runs (I have notes on them but I've lost track of exactly how many I've done).

I started out just blocking both the top and bottom in\out ports for water, filling the bucket with cold water and frozen bottles, and that was it. I was also distilling in my garage at about 45 degrees Fahrenheit. It was January. I noticed the water was heating up pretty good by the end of my runs, so I figured I needed a better method. After much trial and error, this is what I came up with:
Still Set up.jpg
Basically, a 10 gallon cooler filled with water and ice blocks, a fountain pump connected to the bottom of the condenser bucket, and an hose connected to the top which sends the overflow back into the cooler, and circulates the water. This works fine for a 90 minute strip run, but the water in the condenser and cooler gets up to about 120 degrees by the end of the run. I mean, it works fine and it beats having to constantly empty water out of it, but I was curious if anyone had a better idea thats still relatively simple. Maybe some "super ice packs" that stay colder longer than these Wal Mart specials? Maybe a bigger cooler so there is more cold water to start? Maybe a better cooler (this one tends to sweat out...I'm definitely wanting a real cooler not just styrofoam)? Maybe the cooler needs to be drainable so I can keep putting cold water in it...a pain but better than what I was doing before...Any other suggestions?
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Yummyrum
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Yummyrum »

A pot still ( what you have) will require about two times the volume of water to cool the boiler charge .
So if you have a 5gal charge , you’ll need around 10gal of water .
So get a bigger tank , then you won’t need to futz about with Ice and the likes .
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

By bigger tank, you mean the styrofoam cooler or the bucket condenser?

I usually charge the still with 3.5 gallons, so 7 gallons would do the trick without ice or anything else?
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by still_stirrin »

Orpheus123 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:36 pm By bigger tank, you mean the styrofoam cooler or the bucket condenser?

I usually charge the still with 3.5 gallons, so 7 gallons would do the trick without ice or anything else?
So, Yummy gave you a good “seat of the pants” estimate, not a formal analysis of your requirements. Obviously, the amount of heat you need to remove (in the product condenser) equals the amount of heat input to the boiler minus any waste heat lost to the ambient environment, which with a copper alembic boiler you will lose some.

I’d start with at least a 10 gallon reservoir even for a 3-1/2 gallon boiler charge simply because you won’t incur as much temperature rise in the reservoir during the run. “Overkill” is not just another tall tale here…it would be a wise design solution.

If you don’t understand the thermal and mass transfer engineering, fine. But at least listen to those with more experience when given a recommendation. In the end, you’ll be ahead in the game.

Be safe, responsible, and discrete. And have fun.
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by NZChris »

Do you need to save the water?

My system uses a thermocouple hung just above the product outlet to control the temperature of the condensate with a cheap controller and a pump, or solenoid valve. It uses only just enough water to cool the condensate to your desired temperature. I dump the water, sometimes wash the dishes with it first, but you could save it for next time. The water at the top of my condenser is hot enough for me to cook an egg during a run.
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Corn Cracker »

I've got a 5g alembic with a liebig condenser, i use a 10g cooler. I put cool (70°) tap water in and get 1 quart of product and it's up to 95-100 and gets dumped on various rose/ hibiscus bushes, i get 3-4 quarts from my 5 gallon runs depending on if it's a strip or spirit run
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:51 pm
Orpheus123 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:36 pm By bigger tank, you mean the styrofoam cooler or the bucket condenser?

I usually charge the still with 3.5 gallons, so 7 gallons would do the trick without ice or anything else?
So, Yummy gave you a good “seat of the pants” estimate, not a formal analysis of your requirements. Obviously, the amount of heat you need to remove (in the product condenser) equals the amount of heat input to the boiler minus any waste heat lost to the ambient environment, which with a copper alembic boiler you will lose some.

I’d start with at least a 10 gallon reservoir even for a 3-1/2 gallon boiler charge simply because you won’t incur as much temperature rise in the reservoir during the run. “Overkill” is not just another tall tale here…it would be a wise design solution.

If you don’t understand the thermal and mass transfer engineering, fine. But at least listen to those with more experience when given a recommendation. In the end, you’ll be ahead in the game.

Be safe, responsible, and discrete. And have fun.
ss
Regarding "At least listen to those with more experience when given a recommendation", I fully intend to do that. I was merely trying to understand what he was getting at. I certainly was not questioning his advice...just seeking clarification. Thanks.
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

NZChris wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:32 pm Do you need to save the water?

My system uses a thermocouple hung just above the product outlet to control the temperature of the condensate with a cheap controller and a pump, or solenoid valve. It uses only just enough water to cool the condensate to your desired temperature. I dump the water, sometimes wash the dishes with it first, but you could save it for next time. The water at the top of my condenser is hot enough for me to cook an egg during a run.
I usually toss the water on the plants after it cools down a bit. I don't need to save it, just don't want to waste it.

I did notice that the water at the top was hotter than what was going into the condenser from the cooler, but of course as the run went on, both got pretty hot. I think a larger cooler is in order. The bucket is 3 gallons, and the cooler is actually not 10 gallons but 5, and I don't fill it all the way. So a better cooler that is a bit larger, like and actual 10 gallons, would be more than enough I would think.

Thanks!
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

Corn Cracker wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:53 pm I've got a 5g alembic with a liebig condenser, i use a 10g cooler. I put cool (70°) tap water in and get 1 quart of product and it's up to 95-100 and gets dumped on various rose/ hibiscus bushes, i get 3-4 quarts from my 5 gallon runs depending on if it's a strip or spirit run
Yeah, 10 gallons should do the trick. As I said earlier, I misjudged the size. My last stripping run took 90 minutes and the water was hot by the end. Since a spirit will be longer, though not as hot, it makes sense to just get a bigger cooler.

Thanks!
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Yummyrum »

Whether you run hard ( lots of heat ) and fast or Low (Lower heat ) and slowly , the amount of water required will be the same .

You put energy into boiler as heat to vaporise the liquid , when it is condensed back to liquid , the heat ends up in the coolant water .

Reflux stills are a different beast regarding water usage , but for a Pot still , its the same .
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by NZChris »

If you use the condensate temperature to control the water flow, the temperature of the water into the bottom of the worm changes very little during the run. I find it easier to automate the condensate temperature than to fiddle with the flow rate. I use a cheap 12V controller because it can be used on, or off grid using power supplies, a car battery and/or solar.

Heat rises, so If you must use a reservoir, taking the cold water from an outlet at the bottom and returning the hot water, gently, to the top without mixing it with the cold water below, should give a steady, cold, supply until the hot layer reaches the outlet. If that does happen, you can add cold water to the bottom of the reservoir, overflowing the hot to the drain, or just use a bigger reservoir next time.

By using a temperature controller, I remove a task. It means that I don't have to worry about the condenser water flow, even if running a still over a wood fire with constantly changing heat input.
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by JBoozy »

Orpheus

It looks like you have the same still as me. My condenser came with a 7/8" stub out at the top and a I think a 1/2" female NPT at the bottom. For the top I attached a shark bite (push to connect) coupler fitting with a female NPT on the other side. Then to that attached a male NPT x male garden hose fitting (GHT). For the bottom I attached a male NPT x male garden hose fitting.

So what I have is a male garden hose connection coming out of both the top and bottom. Then you can just hook a hose up from your water supply, assuming you have one, to the bottom. And hook a hose to the top and have it drain somewhere. Mine goes to a floor drain. You can adjust the flow as needed from the water supply valve. For strip runs I have to have the water coming in as fast as I can without over flowing from the top of the condenser. Spirit runs I just fill the condenser up with cold water and shut it off. I can usually get by with just the five gallons of cold water for a 3-5 gallon spirit run.
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

OK, so yesterday I did my spirit run with this setup: 2 gallons and a pint of low wines at 32%.
setup.jpg
I had an old cooler sitting around. Filled it with 7 gallons of water at 68 degrees, also filled the worm bucket to capacity which is 3 gallons, so a total of 10. I did not add any ice blocks or anything, just the water. I started the circulation and began my run. The run took about 3 hours (9:20 AM to 12:25 PM), and the water temp seemed to hold pretty well for most of the run. The last 35 minutes or so saw the temp of the water crest 100 degrees, while the vapor temp was at 195. Since I was well into tails at that point, I just let it run out. By the time the run was complete, the water temp was 116 degrees and the vapor temp was 205.

My feeling is that this setup seemed to do the trick through the hearts of the run. I'll blend it all today and see where I'm at, but all in all I'm pretty happy with this setup. I may still decide to get a larger 10 gallon cooler just to make sure the temp stays lower a little longer into the run, but this seemed to do the trick pretty well.

Thanks all for your suggestions and replies. I'm still figuring this whole thing out, so I really appreciate everyone's input. Cheers!
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by Orpheus123 »

JBoozy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:51 am Orpheus

It looks like you have the same still as me. My condenser came with a 7/8" stub out at the top and a I think a 1/2" female NPT at the bottom. For the top I attached a shark bite (push to connect) coupler fitting with a female NPT on the other side. Then to that attached a male NPT x male garden hose fitting (GHT). For the bottom I attached a male NPT x male garden hose fitting.

So what I have is a male garden hose connection coming out of both the top and bottom. Then you can just hook a hose up from your water supply, assuming you have one, to the bottom. And hook a hose to the top and have it drain somewhere. Mine goes to a floor drain. You can adjust the flow as needed from the water supply valve. For strip runs I have to have the water coming in as fast as I can without over flowing from the top of the condenser. Spirit runs I just fill the condenser up with cold water and shut it off. I can usually get by with just the five gallons of cold water for a 3-5 gallon spirit run.
Thanks for that. My condenser just has a couple of copper spouts at top and bottom, so I just rigged some hoses to fit over them so the don't leak, not sure if you can see it well in the picture. I thought about hooking up a water supply and then just letting the water drain out into the yard or something, but that just seems like a lot of water to drain out, since I have no floor drain. That would also be a problem in the winter, draining it out to a frozen yard. I'd have to mess with the flow rate to see how much actual water it would take.

When you say for spirit runs that you just fill up the condenser with cold water and shut it off, it seems that would not be enough for my setup at all. The condenser bucket is only 3 gallons, and my spirit runs are really only about 2 to 2 1\2 gallons, but even then the water gets unbearably hot long before the end of the run (see my earlier post). Is your condenser bigger than 3 gallons? Or perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean about your spirit runs. In any case, this setup above seemed to do the trick. I'm intrigued about hooking it up to my water supply though...might have to mess with that...
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Re: cooling my Alembic pot still condenser...it's better but...

Post by greggn »

Orpheus123 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:09 am
I may still decide to get a larger 10 gallon cooler just to make sure the temp stays lower a little longer into the run

You don't need a cooler ... just use an available trashcan. That way you can go "large", 20 or 30 gallons, and feel confident that you have adequate cooling capacity.

After a few runs you'll get a better sense of exactly how much water you'll need going forward.
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