My new Liebig.

Anything cooling/condenser related.

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bgrizzle
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by bgrizzle » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:29 pm

I have an idea, but I dont have the expertise to construct it... I imagine two copper tubes, maybe 1/4" that are spiraled around eachother (like a candy cane). This spiral would go inside of another outer tube (maybe 1"). So, at the bottom of the "candy cane spiral" the product output tube would exit a fitting of some sort. The coolant spiral would somehow dump back into the 1" pipe. The cooling liquid would then exit at the top of the liebig.

OR, along the same ideas, create a tight wound spiral... maybe 1/4" tubing... and run this through the center of 1" pipe (coolant on the outside).

Maybe others have already done this, but I think that in theory both would work well!

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Samohon » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:26 am

bgrizzle wrote:I have an idea, but I dont have the expertise to construct it... I imagine two copper tubes, maybe 1/4" that are spiraled around eachother (like a candy cane). This spiral would go inside of another outer tube (maybe 1"). So, at the bottom of the "candy cane spiral" the product output tube would exit a fitting of some sort. The coolant spiral would somehow dump back into the 1" pipe. The cooling liquid would then exit at the top of the liebig.

OR, along the same ideas, create a tight wound spiral... maybe 1/4" tubing... and run this through the center of 1" pipe (coolant on the outside).
Maybe others have already done this, but I think that in theory both would work well!
I thought about this a while back, when I saw Hooks spiralled turbulator... The problem would be the connections from/to the other plumbing...
The connection could probably be made with an End Feed ¾" End cap at both ends...
Spiral Liebig.jpg
Placing inside a ½" ring of ½" pipe and filling with solder is the way that I would go....
Have'nt done the math for it, but the surface area would be greater...
I would also have the Spiralled Liebig in a vertical position, could cause a liquid trap in another position...

I would rather build a 3/8" x ¾" Graham condenser, much more efficient...

Hope this helps this theory...
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by bgrizzle » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:21 am

I'm going to start reading about Graham condensers... I read somewhere on the site that RADs ideal rig would have a graham condenser. Everything I've read by RAD has seemed logical, and well thought out... Now I hear it from you samohon... time to do some more reading for me!

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Samohon » Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:48 am

Yeah, you gotta hand it to the Rad-man for thinking it through logically, saves time and money using something proven...

@Rad:
Was that enough Rad...? When do I get my first pay cheque... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by rad14701 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:15 pm

Samohon wrote:@Rad:
Was that enough Rad...? When do I get my first pay cheque... :lol: :lol: :lol:
I was waiting for that...

The checks in the mail... :twisted:

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by HookLine » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:13 am

Liebig Condenser.gif
Liebig inner spiral.gif
Liebig inner spiral.gif (5.12 KiB) Viewed 8424 times
13x19x13 mm copper tee.jpg
13x19x13 mm copper tee.jpg (4.4 KiB) Viewed 8424 times
You will need to file out the stops in the 13 mm (1/2") side of the straight section of the tee (left hand side of pic), to let the 13 mm tube slide all the way through.

Some stops are a continuous ring the way around the tee, some stops are just 3 dimples. The 3 dimples version is much easier to file out.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by kurgan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:18 pm

Just built a 36" version today and wanted to say thanks. I used 12/2 (the ground wire) indoor wiring for the inner and outer spirals. I found that a strand of 12/2 romex is quite a tight fit between the 1/2" and 3/4" (10 would not have worked for me), but it did slide over with some pressure. I also found that a stainless steel whip cb antenna makes a nice jig when winding the inner spiral.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by stilly_bugger » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:53 pm

Thanks for these plans, Hookline. I built a 59cm (23") version for a 2,200w pot and it works great. I was a bit sceptical at first, given that the condensor length calculator on the parent site {http://homedistiller.org/calcs/cond_calc} says this is too small for a 2,200w element.

So here's how it went.

I used 15mm (~1/2") tubing for the inner, with 2 pieces of 1mm copper wire that I had twisted together wound around the inner in a clockwise direction for turbulence. The 15mm inner plus the 2 x 1mm twisted wire made for a nice snug fit in the 20mm (~3/4") outer. I used another length of the 2 x 1mm twisted wires to make the inner tube insert, spiraling the insert in a counter-clockwise direction.

The results with a diluted vinegar run:

Tap temp.
tap_temp.jpg
Vapour temp.
top_temp.jpg
Output temp.
output_temp.jpg
Without any vapour :thumbup: (this shot is a mirror placed directly over the output to detect any vapour).
mirror.jpg
mirror.jpg (11.51 KiB) Viewed 8180 times
During running the temp around the condensor (top, bottom) was very even. I was running once-through tap water at a fair rate (about 2lt per minute), but it shows that a shorter, 59cm x 15mm inner / 20mm outer liebig can knock down all the vapour from a 2,200w element if you increase coolant and vapour turbulence.

So thanks again for the plans. :D

By the way, does anyone know if there's something amiss with the parent-site calculator? If I put in a vapour temp of 100C it tells me I need a SHORTER condensor than when I input a vapour temp of 78C. :think:

Or, thinking out aloud based on this (http://homedistiller.org/theory/theory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) have I misunderstood some piece of theory? If my coolant at entry is a fixed temp, say 20C, then is it going to more effectively condense the vapour from a liquid with a higher boiling point (e.g. water) than the vapour from a liquid with a lower boiling point (e.g. ethanol/water mix)? That is, will a condensor knock down water vapour more easily than it will knock down ethanol vapour? :think: :think: If so, then the calculator is right.
Last edited by stilly_bugger on Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by airhill » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:40 pm

There was an interesting design for the vapour path some time ago.
Basically it involved taking a piece of flat annealed copper and putting cuts across from either-side (not all the way through) at regular intervals eg about half an inch. You then twisted each piece so it was offset by 90 degrees. Then twisted each piece at either side. You ended up with what looks like a series of propellors which was inserted up the liebig.
Besides being simple to construct it allowed the liebig to be used at an angle as it did not create pooling.
Theoretically the faster vapour was pushed through it the greater the turbulence; I am unsure whether it was tested or any results. :)

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by LWTCS » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:56 pm

airhill wrote:There was an interesting design for the vapour path some time ago.
Basically it involved taking a piece of flat annealed copper and putting cuts across from either-side (not all the way through) at regular intervals eg about half an inch. You then twisted each piece so it was offset by 90 degrees. Then twisted each piece at either side. You ended up with what looks like a series of propellors which was inserted up the liebig.
Besides being simple to construct it allowed the liebig to be used at an angle as it did not create pooling.
Theoretically the faster vapour was pushed through it the greater the turbulence; I am unsure whether it was tested or any results. :)
That sounds like Condensificator's handy work
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by emptyglass » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:43 am

LWTCS wrote:
airhill wrote:There was an interesting design for the vapour path some time ago.
Basically it involved taking a piece of flat annealed copper and putting cuts across from either-side (not all the way through) at regular intervals eg about half an inch. You then twisted each piece so it was offset by 90 degrees. Then twisted each piece at either side. You ended up with what looks like a series of propellors which was inserted up the liebig.
Besides being simple to construct it allowed the liebig to be used at an angle as it did not create pooling.
Theoretically the faster vapour was pushed through it the greater the turbulence; I am unsure whether it was tested or any results. :)
That sounds like Condensificator's handy work
Sounds like the "turbulator"

Nice work again Hook.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Anthoney » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:21 am

If you google static mixer you will find a lot of variations on the theme of what you are calling a turbulator. They are common devices in chemical engineering and are usually used to bring two or more liquid components into intimate contact with each other. You can see an (unusable for ethanol as they are plastic) example if you search for epoxy mixers. The nice ones are made from semicircles of stainless welded to a central rod at alternating angles.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by HookLine » Sat May 12, 2012 7:39 am

Thanks folks. I got the idea for the coolant spiral from somewhere else, can't remember where offhand.

Liebigs are not the most efficient condenser design and are probably best suited to recirculating systems, where you can have a high coolant flow rate without wasting water.

But I can still comfortably knock down 2400 w of water steam with mine. Only change I would make to it would be to make it a little longer, mainly to help cool the condensate a little more before it exits as it comes out pretty warm.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:20 am

what is the best size inner and outer pipe ,with a 3" tower and 5500 watts 220v 1/2"x 1" or 3/8"x 3/4" ready to but material today let me know

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by rad14701 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:03 am

vinper wrote:what is the best size inner and outer pipe ,with a 3" tower and 5500 watts 220v 1/2"x 1" or 3/8"x 3/4" ready to but material today let me know
1/2 inside 3/4 suits the needs of most around here... It keeps the liebig light, from a water weight standpoint, and coolant flow can be adjusted to knock down 100% of the vapor... A piece of copper wire wound around the 1/2" acts as a turbulator for greater thermal transfer...

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:23 am

So then my minimum lenght needs to be x ? building tomorrow

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:31 am

If i use that caculator and have 75 degree water it would have to be huge .

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:40 am

After reading about the coolant spiral. my input would be to run the water spiral one direction and the vapor spiral in other ..opposite

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by rad14701 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:42 pm

vinper wrote:So then my minimum lenght needs to be x ? building tomorrow
36" should be good... Most here build 24" - 48" liebigs... Remember, you probably won't be pushing 5500 Watts once you reach distillation temperatures...

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:18 am

well I built mine this weekend , put the spiral wire in it ,made it 40" just cause had enough copper . I thing I did was take a piece of 50 grit sand paper and ran it back and forth on the outside of the inside tube . It made nice ridges which to me helps heat transfere

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by HookLine » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:09 am

vinper wrote:I thing I did was take a piece of 50 grit sand paper and ran it back and forth on the outside of the inside tube . It made nice ridges which to me helps heat transfere
Good idea. 8)
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by myles » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:05 am

If you are trying to cool a lot of heat input the conventional liebigs can get quite long and unweildy. Also going too big on the inner core is not the best option IMO. Big cores require turbulators to minimise the "distance to a cold surface" which they depend on.

One alternative is to increase the number of vapour cores. There is an overlap with shotgun condensers but I suspect it is a length vs diameter consideration that determins if you call it a liebig or a shotgun.

I have a long liebig where I put 3 sets of 3/8" vapour tubes inside a single 1" jacket. Now to me this is a liebig because it is long and thin, and the multiple cores significantly increases the cooled surface area, compared to a single core of the same cross sectional area as the 3 smaller cores.

Now I just happened to build it inside a coiled jacket, so I have a long liebig in a much more compact configuration.

Image

Image

Now that is a LONG liebig, the vapour path is 84" x 3/8" x 3. Should be good for about 8kW so it is more than I need for my 6kW pot still. :)

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Bushman » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:47 am

myles wrote:
One alternative is to increase the number of vapour cores. There is an overlap with shotgun condensers but I suspect it is a length vs diameter consideration that determins if you call it a liebig or a shotgun.

I have a long liebig where I put 3 sets of 3/8" vapour tubes inside a single 1" jacket. Now to me this is a liebig because it is long and thin, and the multiple cores significantly increases the cooled surface area, compared to a single core of the same cross sectional area as the 3 smaller cores.

I have never heard that definition before, what would you say the determining length that would make it a Liebig over a shotgun. Mine is about 36” x 3" and I have called it a shotgun condenser, it is long like a liebig yet still has a good size diameter. See photo link!
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7YlpI ... E5111D.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by myles » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:11 am

That realy is nice. :thumbup:

What it is called is probably not relevant, but I suppose there needs to be some sort of consensus.

Your smart 36" x 3" gives length:dia ratio = 12
Standard liebig - 1/2" inside 3/4" x 24" (probably the shortest used) length:dia ratio = 32
Typical 3/4" in 1" x 48" length:dia ratio = 48
my coiled liebig length:dia ratio = 84

I also have a condenser with 2 concentric vapour paths in the same shell. 1/2" inside 3/4", inside a 1" inside 1.5" - total outer cooled length 21", so that has a length:dia ratio = 14 and I deffinitely think of that as a specialised shotgun and not a liebig.

I don't know - how about an arbitary value of 20. Longer and it is a liebig / shorter and it is a shotgun? Not that it matters a great deal so long as the condenser works. :)

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Bushman » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:24 am

Couldn't agree with you more myles! I had never heard a definition before, just different designs and pictures and it got me to thinking.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:25 am

I made mine 40" seems like could have gone to 24" all cooling happens in the 1st 10" barely have to run a trickle

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by heartcut » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:12 am

"High efficiency" lab condensers have a thin cooling medium annulus, so I tried a 19 ft 3/8" inside a 1/2" x 0.035" tube for a wort chiller and I chill 6 gal of beer to pitching temp in less than 10 min with about half the water it took with my 1/4" inside 1/2" cooler. Maybe making the outside of a liebig closer to the inside would have a similar effect?
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by vinper » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:30 am

doing striping run i found out why its better a little longer . when running that hot .gotta keep close eye on it . liebig heated up to the end a few times

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Ignor the ignorant » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:54 pm

Please wait whilst i put on me fireproof clothing as i feel i'm about to get flamed :lol:

As i'm about to put together a pot head with liebeg this seemed like the place to read up, now you've got me thinking :?:

It would seem that when the condensate is flowing there is little contact with the 15mm ( for sake of argument )copper tube due to it's cylindrical form, maybe only 3 or 4mm so heat conduction to the surrounding copper pipe is not as good as it could be, also the air above it whilst still warm is acting as mild insulation against heating the surrounding copper.

My reckoning is that by flattening (sqashing/ making into a rectangle etc) of the fluid tube inside the water jacket to allow more of the condensate to come into contact with the copper must make the cooling of the liebeg more efficient.

You're thoughts please but i'm already committed to giving this a go.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Durace11 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:42 pm

You could just put a piece of copper mesh up your liebig and that will increase the contact cooling to the vapor as well as make it turbulent enough to ensure more of the vapor contacts the walls of the tube.. I'm not sure what the square vs circle will do for sq inch of cooling area but squaring up a tube is probably more work then you need to put yourself through.
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