My new Liebig.

Anything cooling/condenser related.

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Jacksonbrown
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Jacksonbrown » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:11 pm

still_stirrin wrote:This is examplified by Jacksonbrown's quote:s
Man, your spelling is worse than mine :D

still_stirrin wrote:Ideal efficiency is when the heat removed equals the heat introduced, or more appropriately the heat (flow) in the vapors is transfered to the coolant. This is examplified by Jacksonbrown's quote:

Therefore, the efficiency of the heat exchanger approaches 100% (ideal HEX). Note - in this equation, we're assuming the product outlet temperature is equal to the water inlet temperature.
That equation is only looking at the flow of heat in one in one direction. It doesn't really mater what the distillate temp is. Your right that it is a bit more complicated with phase changes and stuff when you can pull a heap of heat out of a fluid and it doesn't change temp but for what we're talking about I think that equation is fit for purpose IMO.

still_stirrin wrote: If there is a great difference between the water inlet temperature and the vapor inlet temperature, it may require more contact surface area to conduct the heat all out so that the product outlet temperature approaches the water inlet temperature.
Shouldn't that be a a larger deltaT requires less surface area? going back to my comment about making the smallest condenser.

Fact is, an efficient heat exchanger is one that exchanges heat efficiently. Plain and simple. Just because a lot of people interpret the term incorrectly doesn't make them right.
Correct and incorrect shouldn't really be up for a HD vote.
There are quite a few engineering terms that pop up here that are used in completely the wrong context but they seem to gain steam and become fixed.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Bagasso » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:30 pm

Jacksonbrown wrote:There are quite a few engineering terms that pop up here that are used in completely the wrong context but they seem to gain steam and become fixed.
Or, they are not exclusive to engineering and are being used in layman's terms.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Jacksonbrown » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:36 pm

What ever makes you feel better.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Bagasso » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Jacksonbrown wrote:What ever makes you feel better.
Has no effect on how I feel.

I'm trying to point out that that is what happens.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:22 am

Sorry to dredge this back up but...

Just cause you achieved HEX at 100% doesn't mean you have calculated any level of efficiency.

Take two condensers. Tune both of them so that the output coolant is 99% the temperature of the input vapor.
Yet one of them is flowing a quart/minute of coolant and the other is only using a pint/minute of coolant.
Both have achieved the same 99% but one is more efficient than the other.


The best way to test this is to run two liebigs, adjust distillate flow rate to be identical, (would be best done with a riser and a Tee with two liebigs coming off a single boiler as Rad suggested way back), then adjust coolant flow on each one so that the coolant outflow temp is identical.
Then the liebig that has the lower coolant flow rate is the most efficient.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:26 am

Now, after 10 pages of banter I couldn't find my answer...:cry:

How do you know when a 1/2" vs a 3/4" liebig is appropriate.

My 8 gal still with 2" riser has a 1/2" liebig, would I benefit from a 3/4"?

I'd really like to make one out of this stuff: Image

Maybe I could go much shorter?
"Making likker with a hydrometer and thermometer is like measuring the length of a 2x4 with a clock"

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Natertot91 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:53 am

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Now, after 10 pages of banter I couldn't find my answer...:cry:

How do you know when a 1/2" vs a 3/4" liebig is appropriate.

My 8 gal still with 2" riser has a 1/2" liebig, would I benefit from a 3/4"?

I'd really like to make one out of this stuff: Image

Maybe I could go much shorter?

I wanted to comment on this to make it easier to follow. Going to start a liebig build as well, wanted to see what people say about Popstar's idea.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by gflower1 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:06 am

I saw that same piece at Lowe's yesterday. Wondering the same thing

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:03 am

Natertot91 wrote:
Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Now, after 10 pages of banter I couldn't find my answer...:cry:

How do you know when a 1/2" vs a 3/4" liebig is appropriate.

My 8 gal still with 2" riser has a 1/2" liebig, would I benefit from a 3/4"?

I'd really like to make one out of this stuff: Image

Maybe I could go much shorter?

I wanted to comment on this to make it easier to follow. Going to start a liebig build as well, wanted to see what people say about Popstar's idea.
I swear I just read this like three times. Each time I kept asking myself who's Popstar? Then I was like oh yeah that's me. And I'm not even drinking lol.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by pfshine » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:39 pm

It will work great if and only if it is kept perfectly vertical. Otherwise you will get all kinds of pooling and smearing to high heaven.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:04 pm

pfshine wrote:It will work great if and only if it is kept perfectly vertical. Otherwise you will get all kinds of pooling and smearing to high heaven.
Well it doesn't need to be verticle. It just needs to be at an angle so that all of the internal humps slope downwards.
I just purchased one and that angle seems to be about 35 degrees or greater.

Coming soon to a thread near you.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by JG762 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:59 pm

Some of you guys who've been here forever don't need this info but for someone who's new to this and trying to understand all of the ins and outs statements like this are gold. LoL
I couldn't for the life of me figure out why winding a small wire around the tube would be enough of a heat sink to make any difference, now I get it.... :think:

[/Obviously the purpose is to make the coolant in the jacket spiral around the internal tube, not just travel straight up the side of it. This makes the coolant travel a lot further inside the Liebig, makes it more turbulent along the way, and ensures that all of the coolant will contact all of the internal tube on its path.b]
ATFOTRAF

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:10 pm

JG762 wrote:Some of you guys who've been here forever don't need this info but for someone who's new to this and trying to understand all of the ins and outs statements like this are gold. LoL
I couldn't for the life of me figure out why winding a small wire around the tube would be enough of a heat sink to make any difference, now I get it.... :think:

[/Obviously the purpose is to make the coolant in the jacket spiral around the internal tube, not just travel straight up the side of it. This makes the coolant travel a lot further inside the Liebig, makes it more turbulent along the way, and ensures that all of the coolant will contact all of the internal tube on its path.b]

Much of the "common knowledge" on this forum is taken for granted.

Questions that are easily searched or often asked get disregarded quickly around here. The result is that those very topics get buried deep in the archives under what is thought to be more discussion worthy topics.

It is difficult for a new distiller to navigate for sure. But the HD Google search works wonderfully. Even if you must feel like you're embarking on your journey all alone when doing so.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by crazyk78 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:30 am

JG762 wrote:Some of you guys who've been here forever don't need this info but for someone who's new to this and trying to understand all of the ins and outs statements like this are gold. LoL
I couldn't for the life of me figure out why winding a small wire around the tube would be enough of a heat sink to make any difference, now I get it.... :think:

[/Obviously the purpose is to make the coolant in the jacket spiral around the internal tube, not just travel straight up the side of it. This makes the coolant travel a lot further inside the Liebig, makes it more turbulent along the way, and ensures that all of the coolant will contact all of the internal tube on its path.b]


Actually my understanding of the spirals goes back to my fluid dynamics days and a thing called laminar flow.

By way of example water running trough a pipe has slower velocities near the walls and greater in the centre.

Use this same theory in the leibig and introduce the spirals and you get turbulent flow thus transferring heat more efficiently.


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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by rad14701 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:10 am

crazyk78 wrote:Actually my understanding of the spirals goes back to my fluid dynamics days and a thing called laminar flow.

By way of example water running trough a pipe has slower velocities near the walls and greater in the centre.

Use this same theory in the leibig and introduce the spirals and you get turbulent flow thus transferring heat more efficiently.
BINGO...!!! :thumbup:

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by mendozer » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:51 pm

this is a cool idea. I am most likely going to copy you. Why was the 3/4 too big for you? just for your space or was it not needed?

I've been reading that it's better for stripping runs. But I guess if you only have one size, 1/2" seems to satisfy the majority of members

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:27 pm

mendozer wrote:this is a cool idea. I am most likely going to copy you. Why was the 3/4 too big for you? just for your space or was it not needed?

I've been reading that it's better for stripping runs. But I guess if you only have one size, 1/2" seems to satisfy the majority of members
Honestly, I just wanted to build something. I have always had more respect for "built not bought".

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by DetroitDIY » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:53 pm

Thanks for the great ideas and discussion. I built a 21.5" long, 1/2" inside 3/4" liebig, size mostly determined by what scrap copper I had about. I run it on a pot still, and have now run about 50 gal of wash. I recirculate from a 44 gal Brute, and switch to a 20 gal Brute when I have to exchange the hot water out of the 44 for cooler water.

My liebig is painfully undersized for stripping runs. :cry: If I push it hard vapor comes through... so I back off. A stripping run of 11 gal takes me a good 4+ hours :thumbdown: I stripped 2 such charges this weekend. With some of my "free" time I stripped some 14 gauge copper, wound it around a 0.22" OD shaft (moderatel tight spiral... about a pitch of 4 wire diameters), soaked it in some vinegar, and then shoved it up the liebig when I was at the end of my second run (not going to use that bit of distillate just in case there are off tastes... around 10% ABV, so pretty hot).

Holy smokes what a difference it makes! :shock: I pushed the boiler hard and couldn't get vapors to come through. :D My coolant water had already heated to about 86 F, so my delta T was not so great, but that wound copper worked wonders.

I do plan to re-build my liebig a bit longer (30-ish") and add the copper (at a much more gentile spiral) into the water jacket. Just wanted to post how effective I was able to make my little liebig with just the wire in the distillate, in case any of you out there with anemic liebigs needed a quick fix.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by brewstillski » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:09 pm

DetroitDIY wrote:With some of my "free" time I stripped some 14 gauge copper, wound it around a 0.22" OD shaft (moderatel tight spiral... about a pitch of 4 wire diameters), soaked it in some vinegar, and then shoved it up the liebig when I was at the end of my second run (not going to use that bit of distillate just in case there are off tastes... around 10% ABV, so pretty hot).

Holy smokes what a difference it makes! :shock: I pushed the boiler hard and couldn't get vapors to come through. :D My coolant water had already heated to about 86 F, so my delta T was not so great, but that wound copper worked wonders.

I've been thinking about doing something similar to my liebig. Glad to hear that this worked out for you. I might give it a go before my next run.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Iamgod » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:13 am

Has anyone tried putting a lexan tube on the outside of the Liebig (is polycarbonate tube ) instead of copper visually seeing the coolant flow would help confirm or debunk which design allows more efficiency at a minimum it would look cool as not in vapor path should be fine will easily deal with the heat

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Bushman » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:52 am

Iamgod wrote:Has anyone tried putting a lexan tube on the outside of the Liebig (is polycarbonate tube ) instead of copper visually seeing the coolant flow would help confirm or debunk which design allows more efficiency at a minimum it would look cool as not in vapor path should be fine will easily deal with the heat
Something like this?
image.jpeg

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Iamgod » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:41 pm

Cool that's awesome

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by DBCFlash » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:08 am

I'm still a novice but I keep seeing things in this thread that I don't understand. There's a lot of discussion about cooling the liquid in the condenser, but once the vapor has become liquid, why would you want to cool it more? Isn't the point of the condenser to convert the vapor into liquid? Once it's liquid shouldn't it simply be collected?
There's a few mentions of a vertical Liebig allowing the vapor to "drop" straight through, but hot vapor tends to rise in my estimation. The only thing I see dropping in a vertical Liebig would be condensed liquid, and isn't that the point?

I built mine with a 1 1/2" outer and a 3/4" inner, about 22" long. I worked the 3/4" inner into a spiraling triangular shape to maximize the surface area for the vapor and the twist is intended to cause some turbulence for the vapor. Between the inner and the outer I squeezed in a spiral twisted length of 1/4" tubing to create a turbulent path for the cooling water.

I have tested it once on my cleaning run with just water and with my 5500 watt element at full powah it seemed to have no trouble at all knocking all that steam down into water. My recirculation idea was a bust as the volume of water needed would just be ridiculous so I'll be connecting it to a faucet. The five gallon bucket of 55 degree water I was using went up to over 120 degrees in just a few minutes, and getting consistent temperatures in my Liebig would be impossible with the temperature constantly rising in the source.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by heynonny » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:01 am

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Now, after 10 pages of banter I couldn't find my answer...:cry:

How do you know when a 1/2" vs a 3/4" liebig is appropriate.

My 8 gal still with 2" riser has a 1/2" liebig, would I benefit from a 3/4"?

I'd really like to make one out of this stuff: Image

Maybe I could go much shorter?
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=12059

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:51 am

heynonny wrote:
Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Now, after 10 pages of banter I couldn't find my answer...:cry:

How do you know when a 1/2" vs a 3/4" liebig is appropriate.

My 8 gal still with 2" riser has a 1/2" liebig, would I benefit from a 3/4"?

I'd really like to make one out of this stuff: Image

Maybe I could go much shorter?
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=12059

-hey-
Nice, glad to know someone else was thing the same way as me.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by The Baker » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:44 pm

Thanks, Hillbilly Popstar,

The description in the same topic you quote, of how to drill a 'straight-ahead' hole in a copper tube bend, is exactly what I need to know.

Actually my brother-in-law might do it...

I am putting a three-quarter-inch tube inside my two-inch/ one and a quarter-inch liebig (seems too big anyway but I got it for free, it was a milk pre-cooler left over when my friend re-modelled his milking machines; made of stainless but the insert will be copper....).
(And I had the copper tube in my shed anyway....).

This will turn it into a Davies condenser, the vapour will go between the two water tubes. It will be much more efficient because of the extra water tube and especially because there is a narrower space for the vapour, it pretty much HAS to touch the cold surfaces.
So of course the copper tube carrying the 'inside' water flow will stick straight out the top and bottom of the condenser through the new holes (and join externally with the normal water flow in the outside tube).
And the vapour will enter and leave through the (forty-five degree) copper bends.

Thanks again and thanks to heynonny, the poster of the article,

Geoff
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by jonnys_spirit » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:44 pm

I put one of these together this morning.

3/4" -x- 1/2" -x- 36" w/the 14/2 solid copper wire wrapped inside the jacket.

Running a batch of vinegar and water full on w/5500W element and it knocks it down no prob. I'll get a cheap bottle of something for my sacrificial cleaning when they start selling alcohol again (tomorrow). I used most of my fores to start a fire pit so can't use those.

I didn't even put the coiled up copper into the product tube yet but will do some of that too.

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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by rockystill » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:53 am

Question about the connectors being used here. I assume these are threaded brass connections, used to make removal very easy? On the liebig I just built (36", 3/4" over 1/2") I want to do something similar where I don't have to solder directly to my elbow from the column, and make disassembly/storage much easier.

I've googled around - can someone tell me what these connections are called? Maybe a link?

Thanks!
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by zed255 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:14 am

I believe in most areas they would be known as a union.

Look for copper construction, at least copper inner mating surfaces. Brass is fine for the threaded (external) parts but even brass for potable supplies is largely poo-poo'd upon and should see very limited use where product can contact it. This is just because brass has somewhat questionable composition and can still have (in many areas) some lead in it, even for drinking water.
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Re: My new Liebig.

Post by still_stirrin » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:16 am

rockystill wrote:....I've googled around - can someone tell me what these connections are called? Maybe a link?
“Copper union”. Typically, they sweat (solder) on each part/pipe and the brass nut threads them together.
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