Hot water heated boiler?

In our view 30 gallons and under is considered hobby size. Do not bring anything larger than this to our site.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
fqu8847
Swill Maker
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 pm

Hot water heated boiler?

Post by fqu8847 »

So my partner asked this, and I really have no idea...
Instead of propane or other traditional heating methods he wanted to know if we could use hot water to heat the still. Say we take an on demand hot water heater using a reservior (similar to a cooling reservior) and pump it into a jacketed still creating a heat exchanger for power input. Would that work? Flow as below...
Reservior then pumped into the tankless hot water heater, around the still, and back out to the reservior.
Using the still as a heat sink to absorb the heat from the flowing water around it. Two 199k btu water heaters should work, right, for a commercial size boiler of 120 gallons?
Old Copper Road Distillery
Ducktown, TN 37326
DSP- Pending
WIski
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:39 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by WIski »

The highest output temperature I've seen on a demand water heater is 185'F. You may need a higher temperature to make it work. Please show me the way. This sounds wonderful. :eugeek:
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by speedfreaksteve »

There was a guy close to where I live about 10 years ago that had converted a brand new water heater into permanently fixed vodka still it his basement. He even had the household plumbing running into the condenser with a shutoff valve. I believe that he replaced the thermostat with his own.

He basically could do stripping runs without much effort at all. I believe that he ran them slow and long. He apologized that he couldn't show me his setup in person since it might arise suspicion from his wife. She didn't know it existed. The last time I talked to him he was going to install a pump to run the washes into it directly from his stainless steel fermentation vessel.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
User avatar
FuelMaker
Swill Maker
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:51 am
Location: Gig Harbor (ish), WA

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by FuelMaker »

You couldnt use water since you'd run into primary loop boiling issues, but you could use a glycol or a silicon oil loop. You'd need to modify the thermostat but it should be doable.
"A little bit of oops goes a long way."
User avatar
fqu8847
Swill Maker
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by fqu8847 »

Interesting posts, y'all! I was thinking since the original post that if we could use oil, and adjust the on demand water heater to work with the recirculated oil we could essentially use that in place of a steam jacket. In theory keep the oil below 300°F, and just keeping pumping it around the boiler.
Old Copper Road Distillery
Ducktown, TN 37326
DSP- Pending
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by HDNB »

you definitely need more heat as the wash warms and the thermal difference between the wash and the heating fluid becomes smaller.
i use a steam kettle and when the wash is almost stripped out, my boiler will cycle between high limit 14.5 psi and 11psi cut in. as it gets down to 11psi there is a noticable slowing of output...even though i'm only using a fraction of the steam available.
temps at that point is dropping from 250 to 240...or thereabouts...and the wash would be over 200.
most of the main run hold a fairly steady output at about 7psi around 230*

a small res boiler would not be much more expensive than hot h2o demand, use gravity condensate return it would be a lot simpler than trying to make a water heater do something it's not designed for. and no oil or glycol to screw with.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by The Baker »

a small res boiler

I am not exactly sure what that is... may be the language difference.

Geoff
The Baker
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by Pikey »

As far as i can see, the easiest way to do this is comme ca -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COPPER-HOT-WA ... R9oPeztH2Q

Hot water goes through the coil (Heat exchanger or Caloifier) - There may be some issues about the last few degrees of heating, I don't know for certain yet, I haven't got that far, but will be putting an eectric element in the bottom of teh pot to take over when itis nearly up to temperature.

Heat sources are interesting too.

I think you can use a normal boiler of some sort, a wood fired stove with a back boiler, a Webasto (that will be my first try), or even an ordinary car engine , just connect the pipes which normally go to the radiator to the coil.

So as far as I can see - yes, it's perfectly feasible to at least do your major heat up with a different fuel source.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by HDNB »

The Baker wrote:a small res boiler

I am not exactly sure what that is... may be the language difference.

Geoff
and here i thought Aus was used to shortened words...flourescent lights are flouro aren't they?

same Queen's English... just shortened residential to res or rezzy. http://www.slantfin.ca/product-galaxy-gx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
fqu8847
Swill Maker
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by fqu8847 »

Well after looking it all over and crunching some numbers propane will be cheaper... HOWEVER... it has been (in theory) done by my engineering friend. There is a 3 phase industrial hot water heater that heats to 200°F. It is 300k+btu/h, and with my proposed setup he concluded that the addition of a 15k element to distill with, would give us enough power to get up to temp within an hour. Problem is I will have 2 pots (120 gallons each) and will need 2 elements and have to split the heated water between them both. Not financially responsible, since I can build a furnace and run them both off propane at the same time, thus using one to help heat the other. Was a good thought though. Also... isn't gonna help my insurance costs at all according to the quotes.

Damn.
Old Copper Road Distillery
Ducktown, TN 37326
DSP- Pending
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by Pikey »

Yes I'm beginning to that think with the temperatures we need to get to, and the limited top end differential and the possibility of running boilers etc way above their designed limits and teh potential for boiling water in the pipes, the water could only be used to get up "somewhere near" operating temperatures and since most of the fuel is used in overcoming the latent heat of vapourisation rather than warming up the wash, it is just over complicating the issue.

Trouble is I really don't like the idea of a naked flame under my pot.

How many kg of propane does it take to do say a 15 gallon run from start to finish ?

Been looking at steam, but that seems to have it's own issues.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by NZChris »

fqu8847 wrote:Well after looking it all over and crunching some numbers propane will be cheaper... HOWEVER... it has been (in theory) done by my engineering friend. There is a 3 phase industrial hot water heater that heats to 200°F. It is 300k+btu/h, and with my proposed setup he concluded that the addition of a 15k element to distill with, would give us enough power to get up to temp within an hour. Problem is I will have 2 pots (120 gallons each) and will need 2 elements and have to split the heated water between them both. Not financially responsible, since I can build a furnace and run them both off propane at the same time, thus using one to help heat the other. Was a good thought though. Also... isn't gonna help my insurance costs at all according to the quotes.

Damn.
I sounds like you should be considering a Charantaise preheater style setup, so that you only need to heat one pot and save on heatup time and energy costs and cooling costs.
User avatar
fqu8847
Swill Maker
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by fqu8847 »

How is it I have never heard of this preheater setup?!?!?!? I think I will add it to my list of things to do!
Old Copper Road Distillery
Ducktown, TN 37326
DSP- Pending
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by NZChris »

fqu8847 wrote:How is it I have never heard of this preheater setup?!?!?!? I think I will add it to my list of things to do!
Substituting forums and youtube for actual research perhaps? I found out about it thirty odd years ago before I started my first build, which soon included a preheater. Dependant on our current nasty weather, I'm probably running it in the next couple of days. Three strips won't take long and if I start early enough I will have time to include the spirit run and still be at the pub about five.
User avatar
fqu8847
Swill Maker
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by fqu8847 »

Could be chris... I have done extensive research however, and after looking further into it last night, I realized the reason. I was under the mistaken assumption that this preheater was a fancy ass (more for looks) thumper. Boy was I wrong! Thinking I will have to include this in my build!
Old Copper Road Distillery
Ducktown, TN 37326
DSP- Pending
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by NZChris »

I've recently automated the cooling water on mine, controlling the condensate temperature, so now there is no need for me to have to fiddle with the water flow during the run. It's great to be able to just turn the water on and forget about it for the entire run.
User avatar
erlendurh
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 7:44 am
Location: Somewhere south of the North Pole

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by erlendurh »

I am currently using the hot water from my tap (aprox. 80° celcius) to heat my boiler but since that heat is not enough the boiler is a vacuum system and that makes doing cuts very hard and honestly I have given up on it so I am building a new one that is heated with electrical element :roll:
Practice makes perfect, spend less time sharpening your pencils and more time drawing
horseystevetoo
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:39 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by horseystevetoo »

I built a double boiler out of 2 kegs and ran it today distilling with all the grain in, it took 3 hours till the water boiled and then it ran for a couple of hours stripping the 40 litre wash. I reckon after l lag it the heat up time might be reduced and l will hook the 3600W element up to a timer so it can get a head start warming up off peak. Did not appear to need any sort of temp or power controller and the water level in the jacket only dropped an inch or two and l topped it up. Apart from the longer heat up time and the power meter spinning at blinding speed, this set up seems to run similar to my other still with the element in wash.
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by thecroweater »

How did you get on Steve, did you end up insulating it?
I was wondering how this set up would work with an instant gas HWS as a pre-heater , might make it much more feasible .
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
Lifted1
Novice
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Hot water heated boiler?

Post by Lifted1 »

yes, you can use a hot water heater. its actually a preferred method.

refer to this design by Mr John Stone: http://www.gin-vodka.com/carriage.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

His instructions are to dismantle the thermostat and thermo coupler so you can boil away. also, he recommends to get the 220v model and only use 110v leg so it essential only uses 750w. He recommends the 12 gallon unit. the heavy flow of steam created gets shot up into the reflux with minimal back pressure. no risk of explosion in the design. seems the cost of his ebooks and 17 years of distillery experience are well worth the cost.

the only problem i see is that you need to purchase the electric water heater unit and they seem to be $250 or more. I am planning to just use an outdoor propane burner as i can get a used one for under 40 bucks. i would like the entire build to be less than $200.
Post Reply