Steam and Reflux
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- raketemensch
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Steam and Reflux
Apologies for my ignorance on this, but I haven't seen it discussed much. My situation is:
1) I love the one-and-done part of my flute.
2) I don't love squeezing grains.
I'd love to be able to distill on the grain, but that means steam. And unless I'm mistaken, you can't reflux steam to load plates.
I've been trying to come up with a situation to handle this for a few days now, trying to make things as easy as possible. I've been looking for a big, stainless fermenter of around 40 gallons, like a steam kettle. I may have found one with some local scrap guys. I was thinking of maybe fermenting in this, pumping out the liquid into the boiler for the flute, then basically dropping on a lid onto the fermenter that turns it into a thumper.
I could conceivably then run the flute *into* the thumper, but that could defeat the purpose of pulling the fores/heads and stacking. It might not. I dunno.
Thoughts?
1) I love the one-and-done part of my flute.
2) I don't love squeezing grains.
I'd love to be able to distill on the grain, but that means steam. And unless I'm mistaken, you can't reflux steam to load plates.
I've been trying to come up with a situation to handle this for a few days now, trying to make things as easy as possible. I've been looking for a big, stainless fermenter of around 40 gallons, like a steam kettle. I may have found one with some local scrap guys. I was thinking of maybe fermenting in this, pumping out the liquid into the boiler for the flute, then basically dropping on a lid onto the fermenter that turns it into a thumper.
I could conceivably then run the flute *into* the thumper, but that could defeat the purpose of pulling the fores/heads and stacking. It might not. I dunno.
Thoughts?
Re: Steam and Reflux
I have never run steam but it intrigues me and I will some day. I do study this at nauseam for the same reasons you have ventured down this path. My inexperienced thoughts here would be to run your current set up with water/steam or clear ferment through the new stainless fermenter as a strip run keeping everything, no reflux. Then run it through the flute as normal maybe taking a plate or two out. I don't know, but I couldn't let this valid conundrum go with out some sort of response.
- shadylane
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Re: Steam and Reflux
One problem with using direct steam injection is the mash gets diluted.
Thats not much of a problem when stripping, but given the extra time needed when running reflux
The dilution could be a problem.
Personally I strip with steam, then redistill with 6 plates.
Thats not much of a problem when stripping, but given the extra time needed when running reflux
The dilution could be a problem.
Personally I strip with steam, then redistill with 6 plates.
- Yummyrum
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Re: Steam and Reflux
I also agree you'd be best to steam strip then run through the flute .
Regarding your concern about loading the plates with steam , I can't see how this would occur as the steam would heat the mash and alcohol would be coming out of the mash and going into the flute .
I have tried using my thumper on a flute . I had issues with level buildup n the thumper because to the extra time the run takes due to the reflux as compared to just using a PC . This also was an issue because the boiler run dry .... again due to the extra time the run took . If there was an over flow drain from the thumper back to the boiler , that would fix both problems .... but then we get mash back into the boiler .... which is what we are trying to avoid in the first place .
Another option is to return the reflux from the flute straight back to the boiler .
Regarding your concern about loading the plates with steam , I can't see how this would occur as the steam would heat the mash and alcohol would be coming out of the mash and going into the flute .
I have tried using my thumper on a flute . I had issues with level buildup n the thumper because to the extra time the run takes due to the reflux as compared to just using a PC . This also was an issue because the boiler run dry .... again due to the extra time the run took . If there was an over flow drain from the thumper back to the boiler , that would fix both problems .... but then we get mash back into the boiler .... which is what we are trying to avoid in the first place .
Another option is to return the reflux from the flute straight back to the boiler .
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: Steam and Reflux
I don't run a flute, but a steam jacket kettle should let you run 1 and done on grain. Works for me for stripping runs, can't imagine it'd be any different for flutes as the steam jacket doesn't dilute the wash. Get a big one and you can mash, ferment and run all from the kettle.
Bain Marie style would be your only other option I can think of.
Bain Marie style would be your only other option I can think of.
- raketemensch
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Re: Steam and Reflux
Thanks, everyone. I think the jacketed kettle is the way to go, assuming I can find a good way to seal a lid, never mind find one dirt cheap.
I did actually stumble onto one a week or so ago, but it had no lid at all. Supporting the weight of the flute will be interesting, too.
But man, that would be awesome.
I did actually stumble onto one a week or so ago, but it had no lid at all. Supporting the weight of the flute will be interesting, too.
But man, that would be awesome.
Re: Steam and Reflux
How would you heat that bad boy? I would think a boiler for that would be cost prohibitive at the hobby level???I think the jacketed kettle is the way to go
- der wo
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Re: Steam and Reflux
A jacketed boiler must be run with overpressure, or it will stop feeding the column before you want to finish the run. This sounds complicated and a bit dangerous for me.
There is still the option to build an agitator.
There is still the option to build an agitator.
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- Twisted Brick
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Re: Steam and Reflux
They're not too bad if you are patient or get lucky. Last year I found this candlewax melter on Craigslist and started drooling. It was 20 gallons, 1200W element and a 1 1/2" drain for $500. Retail is $1300. The attractive thing about this older melter was the extended vertical sides, perfect to weld a lid with a TC ferrule on top.WIski wrote:How would you heat that bad boy? I would think a boiler for that would be cost prohibitive at the hobby level???I think the jacketed kettle is the way to go
I sent a pic to LWTCS and he called me back on a break from the ADI conference and confirmed it would work with a few mods (install a PRV, fab a valve for the water input and upgrade the element).
I was literally on my way to pick it up when the owner called and told me he had changed his mind and decided to keep it. I'll bet you can find a home-based candlemaker who wants to get out of the business and willing to sell.
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Re: Steam and Reflux
raketemensch wrote: I'd love to be able to distill on the grain, but that means steam. And unless I'm mistaken, you can't reflux steam to load plates.
Why not charge the steam boiler with some of the clear liquid from from your fermentor? Then no dilution issue.
Redwood Hillbilly has a rig that like you are describing that he calls a MFT. Mash Ferment Thumper
- shadylane
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Re: Steam and Reflux
A baine marie with direct steam injection works good.
Re: Steam and Reflux
30-40 gallon steam kettles can be had from government auctions sometimes for a steal. Look for wherever your public schools, universities and prisons sell their surplus. Some require a separate boiler, but most are self contained either electric or gas. Yes they run under pressure, but are designed to do so and aren't problematic.
They weigh 600-800 pounds, so you are mostly competing with local bidders. I don't remember for sure, but I think mine was $300ish and o ly about an hour away. Of course I had to throw a bit more at modifying it, for starters I don't have 480v 3 phase power at home!
They weigh 600-800 pounds, so you are mostly competing with local bidders. I don't remember for sure, but I think mine was $300ish and o ly about an hour away. Of course I had to throw a bit more at modifying it, for starters I don't have 480v 3 phase power at home!
Re: Steam and Reflux
Did a quick Google and these popped up. Anybody in West Virginia really ought to keep an eye on em, auctions is for TWO 30 gallon kettles.
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=M ... cctid=2628" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=M ... cctid=2628" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Re: Steam and Reflux
Wondering about the condensate volume overcoming the capacity of the lower vessel. Any issues with this Shady??Shady Wrote'
A baine marie with direct steam injection works good.
- shadylane
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Re: Steam and Reflux
Not a problem
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59138
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59138
Re: Steam and Reflux
I see...you vented your lower vessel into the upper distillation pot. I was suggesting the steam would be used to heat the still and nothing else and that the steam would be produced from a satellite source not an integral part of the setup (bain marie). With a segregated source of steam (which the OP presented) I'm assuming the liquid line in the lower vessel will only get as high as the liquid line in the distillation pot. If the dilution of the mash isn't a worry for the user then this seems to be a safe and convenient option. I wonder if there is potential for the mash to be sucked back into the lower vessel at cool down. That thought seems pretty ugly to me.
- raketemensch
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Re: Steam and Reflux
Here's a 20-gallon going for $15 in IL:
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/aucti ... uc=2065630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
And this 40gal in LA looks awesome:
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/aucti ... uc=2064720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Now I really want one. I was thinking last night about putting a 6" ferrule on top, and mounting a motorized mixer on it, so I can just clamp it on when mashing.
I was also thinking that maybe with that jacket you could maybe also pump cold water through to chill everything with the mixer spinning, to get down to pitching temp.
So much potential for a single-vessel Everything. Hell, I want two now :]
We've had a few people go the steam kettle or bain marie route now, but it didn't catch on quite like the Flute or Boka, but maybe it's time :]
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/aucti ... uc=2065630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
And this 40gal in LA looks awesome:
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/aucti ... uc=2064720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Now I really want one. I was thinking last night about putting a 6" ferrule on top, and mounting a motorized mixer on it, so I can just clamp it on when mashing.
I was also thinking that maybe with that jacket you could maybe also pump cold water through to chill everything with the mixer spinning, to get down to pitching temp.
So much potential for a single-vessel Everything. Hell, I want two now :]
We've had a few people go the steam kettle or bain marie route now, but it didn't catch on quite like the Flute or Boka, but maybe it's time :]