Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

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Demy
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

shadylane wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:03 pm Don't mean to drag off topic.
Have you considered using external electric heaters
Basically, it's nothing more than a small electric oven, that the pots sits in.
Maybe use a shorted version of something like this.
It will do the same job as a baine marie

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=50456
Thanks, I saw that post once and it might help with some other construction, but I guess not in this case. For a few reasons: the bain marie produces steam and would be useful for some types of distillation, and the inner container is bound to the heat source and this invalidates my idea of a removable container. Since we are here I would like some info on the type of valve (maybe economic) to use or eventually build. I had found this guy
https://it.aliexpress.com/item/40008174 ... 2e0ezXKIX0
it is not adjustable but I have seen a 1kg type (it would be 0.1 Mpa or 14.5 psi). advice?
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shadylane
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by shadylane »

I'm not sure what the specs are on the relief valve.
What do they mean by a rating of 1KG. :?:
Anyway I wouldn't use it because it's not steam rated.
You wouldn't want a safety valve that fails to open due to corrosion
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Corsaire
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Corsaire »

1kg/cm2 or about 1bar. 14,5 freedom units.

Something like this would be better I think. But more spendy.
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/400081812 ... .jpg_.webp
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RC Al
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by RC Al »

Just as a "simple" solution to the original question, since its only a 12" diameter internal pot, how about just a 12" triclamp set up? You could easy flange it if your on a budget (pass personally), but other than cost, it ticks all the boxes and the seals are available readily.
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by zapata »

A couple notes. I think there's a detail you aren't getting about the magic of steam to transfer energy compared to water (or metal, sand, or most anything else). Latent heat of vaporization/condensation. Basically, you know it takes a little bit of energies to make a drop of water a little bit hotter. But it takes a whole bunch of energies to boil that drop? That's the latent heat of vaporization. Well that process works in reverse, LHC. When the steam hits the inner pot, it condenses, and that transformation instantly transfers all the energy that it took to boil the water. It's the magic of phase change, and it's essential to steam jackets being workable and bain maries not.

Btw, "latent" heat is opposed to "sensible" heat. Sensible heat you feel, like it's 10 degrees warmer in here. Latent heat isn't "felt", steam can transfer incredible amounts of energy and hardly change temperature. Sensible heat scorches the pot, latent heat mostly just transfers energy.

On the pressure, most commercial units are built for 15-30 psi. I have one, and was pretty surprised to see it never really got up to pressure even though the gauge goes up to 30. But, :idea: all the energy of the steam condensing on the inner pot just powers the phase change inside the wash, and that energy is carried away to the condenser. The process is efficient and quick, so energy is constantly leaving the pot so it doesn't really need to / able to build up high pressure. Which is the whole point behind steam kettles, steam engines, seam power plants etc, steam is really efficient at transferring energy.

Sorry I can't give exact figures, because after figuring it out and verifying my pressure limit safeties work I pretty much never look at the pressure because that isn't how I drive it. But I think you could get away with 5 psi. Maybe even 2 psi, although at that low temp the last part of the stripping run may slow down a bit, the difference between steam and kettle temps does still affect energy transfer. But it will still boil, 2.3 psi steam is 7*F hotter than bain marie style boiling water, and has all that latent heat too.

Which may be encouraging because I don't think you'll have any hope of a soft seal removable deal holding 15 psi. I'll be impressed if you can hold 5 psi, that's about what open head steel barrels with clamped lids can handle, and any setup I can imagine for you doesn't have that kind of mechanical rigidity. And honestly, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a homebrewed pressure vessel. Even at just a few psi, there are huge overall forces, and potential for cataclysmic forces if you things fail badly. Please think of every way to do this safely, and double up whatever safety measures you go with.
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by shadylane »

RC Al wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:13 am Just as a "simple" solution to the original question, since its only a 12" diameter internal pot, how about just a 12" triclamp set up? You could easy flange it if your on a budget (pass personally), but other than cost, it ticks all the boxes and the seals are available readily.
Since the seal is only in contact with the water
And as long as there's no pressure build up
High temp epoxy could be used to attach the triclamp flanges
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Demy
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

shadylane wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:18 pm I'm not sure what the specs are on the relief valve.
What do they mean by a rating of 1KG. :?:
Anyway I wouldn't use it because it's not steam rated.
You wouldn't want a safety valve that fails to open due to corrosion
I had included the value in the message above, it is 14.5 psi. It is made as a valve for compressed air (humid air) and I thought about that. Would a similar value for a valve be right?
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by shadylane »

May I offer some advice
Don't use steam
Unless you have the wherewithal and proper equipment.
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

zapata wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:16 am
Thank you very much, I appreciate your intervention and the other members. It seems to me that everyone agrees that steam is much more effective (x 7?) Than water alone. The question of pressure is very interesting. I thought of practicing this route as I made low wines (about 7% therefore a lot of water) with an improvised bain marie (2 pots one inside the other) and I was surprised at the efficiency, no water loss even though the jacket was open to air, no pressure. So I thought that the low pressure steam would have done better if everything was optimized.As regards the pressure it must be considered that the full container with its own weight opposes a certain resistance downwards but having never had a system of the I generally don't know how to quantify for example 5psi which vapor force they generate. I hope you understand my "English".
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by zach »

Demy wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:31 am
zapata wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:16 am
.As regards the pressure it must be considered that the full container with its own weight opposes a certain resistance downwards but having never had a system of the I generally don't know how to quantify for example 5psi which vapor force they generate. I hope you understand my "English".
A pressure of 5 psi over a 12 inch diameter opening will generate a force of 566 lbs. (3.14 x (12/2)^2) x 5
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by BlackStrap »

I use a bain marie that is open (not sealed) the outer container is filled with vegetable oil. The oil only needs to reach a temp of 230 or so, the outer container has a 220 5500w ULWD element, and controlled using a simple power controller.
7gal-Bain-Maire-2020.jpg
Outer is a 15 gallon 1/2 Keg and the inner is a 7 gallon 1/4 keg. The 1/4 keg is held above the elements using (4) 1/4 x x20 SHCS.
Outer-Kettle.jpg
Inner-Kettle.jpg
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shadylane
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by shadylane »

A friend uses a similar set up, He also uses vegetable oil.
For a small baine marie like Demy is using, a gallon of Propylene Glycol would also work

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Demy
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

BlackStrap wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:03 am
Yes, my first provisional setup was something like this. I would like to use water instead of oil because I believe that the power variation is more controllable with water and easier to manage and clean. However, it is a valid system, thanks for the photo
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by LWTCS »

Demy wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 am
BlackStrap wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:03 am
Yes, my first provisional setup was something like this. I would like to use water instead of oil because I believe that the power variation is more controllable with water and easier to manage and clean. However, it is a valid system, thanks for the photo
If you're going to use the water as a true water bath,,,,your heat up efficiency is going to be terrible.
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Demy
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:50 am
Demy wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 am
BlackStrap wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:03 am
Yes, my first provisional setup was something like this. I would like to use water instead of oil because I believe that the power variation is more controllable with water and easier to manage and clean. However, it is a valid system, thanks for the photo
If you're going to use the water as a true water bath,,,,your heat up efficiency is going to be terrible.
No, in this realization I will follow (if it works) your water-steam suggestion as it is more efficient. In fact you could use both because the construction is identical (or almost).
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

A small update of the project, I built 2 internal boilers including one with a grid bottom. They are still to be completed but they give the idea.
20201025_093949.jpg
20201025_094009.jpg
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Fredistiller »

I run a oil bain marie still... but I hesitated a long time before going for it. I know what you're going through! :mrgreen:

I'm really happy with my boiler, never had any scorching even with very, very thick washes. Otherwise, Der Wo has a nice agitator system, you should search for his posts. You'll also need to insulate your double boiler.
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A word on fire hazard, if you heat up slowly (I start with 5 min at 25%, then go for the 3000W 220v),and use good oil there is almost no risks. Because it's the dirty floating stuff that burns in your fryer, not the oil itself.
What about hazard of explosion with pressure? When it goes bad, it goes really bad.
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

Fredistiller wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:27 am I run a oil bain marie still... but I hesitated a long time before going for it. I know what you're going through! :mrgreen:

I'm really happy with my boiler, never had any scorching even with very, very thick washes. Otherwise, Der Wo has a nice agitator system, you should search for his posts. You'll also need to insulate your double boiler.
(My still is in my signature)


A word on fire hazard, if you heat up slowly (I start with 5 min at 25%, then go for the 3000W 220v),and use good oil there is almost no risks. Because it's the dirty floating stuff that burns in your fryer, not the oil itself.
What about hazard of explosion with pressure? When it goes bad, it goes really bad.
Thanks Fred, for now I have only built the internal boiler but I would like to use water / steam as mentioned in the post, the last alternative would be oil. The reason among other things is that I would like to be able to extract the internal boiler, empty it, fill it and continue (especially with fruit stripping). We'll see what comes out of it ... it's still a very versatile system that I really like. Unfortunately I will have to build the external boiler in simple iron.
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

I wanted to try the system for a long time before continuing the post. A premise before being "attacked": I built this boiler with what I could recover, I tried to do my best. I know there are better built models, but this is what I managed to do.
Initially the external boiler was in iron and the internal one in stainless steel, the iron was very thick but subject to rust so I built the boiler starting from stainless steel pipes. The supporting structure is made of iron and can be completely dismantled. As in my original idea, the internal boiler is separable. It works like a steam jacket with 3kw stainless steel electric resistance, it has a pressure gauge and a safety valve that I have modified to use it as a "tap" when I turn off the boiler to avoid the danger of "suction". It works great at very low pressure, in the deepest tails I had a maximum of 0.3 bar.
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20201217_154831.jpg
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Here I fell far below 10 ABV
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by zach »

I like the tilting feature on your new boiler.

Scooping hot pomace out of a boiler is not much fun.

Also I'm impressed with your metal working skills and ingenuity. Stainless flanges, manways and large tri clamps are expensive and you managed to fabricate your own using a mixture of carbon and stainless steel.

Did you have some pomace stored to allow a test?
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Demy
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

zach wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:33 am I like the tilting feature on your new boiler.

Scooping hot pomace out of a boiler is not much fun.

Also I'm impressed with your metal working skills and ingenuity. Stainless flanges, manways and large tri clamps are expensive and you managed to fabricate your own using a mixture of carbon and stainless steel.

Did you have some pomace stored to allow a test?
To test (and stress) the kettle I made a very thick pear puree (see here https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=80638), I made a mash of cereals (distillation on the grains ), various low wines and today I am making a mix of marc and wine (some stalks that were not ripe since the harvest, with the juice I make wine vinegar and grape marc grappa). Actually for the grappa I made another perforated inner container (I remove the closed one and insert the perforated one) so I steam distill the pomace. I have very basic equipment, but the ingenuity is there.
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by shadylane »

Excellent design :thumbup:
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

:thumbup: :wave: :wave:
shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:20 am Excellent design :thumbup:
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Evil_Dark »

Congrats on the build and ingenuity!
Nice to see that you kept on the original idea, despite of every one trying to show you a different way... And it looks like your idea is working great to your needs!
Finally, how much water do you put in the water boiler section? Just to cover the element, or more to cover a part of the inner boiler walls?
And you metal working skills are great :)

Have fun!
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Demy
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Re: Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

Post by Demy »

Evil_Dark wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:28 pm Congrats on the build and ingenuity!
Nice to see that you kept on the original idea, despite of every one trying to show you a different way... And it looks like your idea is working great to your needs!
Finally, how much water do you put in the water boiler section? Just to cover the element, or more to cover a part of the inner boiler walls?
And you metal working skills are great :)

Have fun!
Thanks a lot, I tried to use what I had around, keeping a low cost but a lot of work on my part .. it's part of the fun. The internal element is stainless steel covered with water for at least 5-7 cm, better to cover more than less .. with this configuration I can boil solid stuff like fruit that would otherwise burn, the "steam jacket" configuration I think is the most versatile solution you can have, I love it.
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