Cheap and simple BAIN MARIE

[Demy]

Hello guys. My experience with a bain marie is limited, the last thing I did is low (very low!) Grappa wines and the result was fantastic. I had to make do with what I had so a keg of beer with a small pot inside. I often make fruit ferments (free fruit or fruit from my trees) and I wanted to build something low cost but that works. Before asking anything else my first question: Could the external boiler (not in contact with the washing) be made of galvanized steel?

[Vikthevet]

Hi Demy
I do not see any issues with using external boiler made from galvanized steel as it would be filled with water and reach maximum temperature of 100 C or few degrees over and maintain the temperature. Also wash or mash which is inside the second container will also affect the temperature in external boiler.

[Demy]

While waiting for further confirmations on the external boiler, I made a simple drawing with some doubts visible (crite in red). Any advice is accepted.

Immagine.png (12.84 KiB) Viewed 3558 times

[tombombadil]

I'm also doing some research on this subject as I'm having scorching issues with high rye mashes.

I've gotten a few different pieces of interesting advice, here's the stuff I'm going to try out over the next few runs:
1. stir while heating up, once it's hot enough the convection currents should keep the solids moving around
-this is the simplest but also the most annoying, it takes like 2 hours for my still to heat up. I'm thinking about building
some kind of agitator that I can attach and remove so it's automatic. Something simple like what tater used in his
'how to corn mash' videos.

2. use a heat diffuser plate, no bain marie necessary
-I already got one of these, this is what I'm trying later today. Stainless is not a good conductor. The heat does
not spread out very well. The general idea here is to spread the heat out before it hits the bottom of the still
so even though stainless is a bad conductor the heat will not be concentrated to small areas.

3. use a double boiler with sand instead of liquid
-this will be my next resort because it seems like the simplest and cheapest next option. same idea but
it might spread the heat out more

4. use a double boiler with water
-definitely will spread the heat out more but what if the water is evaporating too fast and I have to add more water back? That causes the heat to
drop etc...

5. use a double boiler with glycol
-this stuff is not cheap and I run my still in my garage with the door only partially open, not sure if
the fumes are safe in that environment...

6. use a double boiler with oil
-seems like a serious fire hazard having oil in there

Anyways, I subscribed and I'll report back if I have anything useful to add. Good luck!

[Demy]

My direction is solely on simple bain-marie but the most effective way possible. I have read everything I have found on the forum and it seems ideal for me.

[LWTCS]

Couple things
If you're not able to seal the head space within the jacket (up to 1bar) your heat up times will be abysmal. Otherwise you'll never exceed the boiling point of water at sea level or above.
1 bar (15 psi = low pressure steam) gets you to nearly 249F (120 celcius)

Ideally, you'll want to at least keep the liquid level in the jacket below the side walls unless you are using oil as your heating medium.

Also, if using water as your heating medium ( assuming you are able to pressurize your jacket) you should install an air bleed (valve) so that you can purge air from the jacket during heat up. This will allow steam vapor to more completely occupy all of the head space within the jacket.
In other words, trapped air will reduce the available surface area that steam can occupy during heat up.

[Demy]

Couple things
If you're not able to seal the head space within the jacket (up to 1bar) your heat up times will be abysmal. Otherwise you'll never exceed the boiling point of water at sea level or above.
1 bar (15 psi = low pressure steam) gets you to nearly 249F (120 celcius)

Ideally, you'll want to at least keep the liquid level in the jacket below the side walls unless you are using oil as your heating medium.

Also, if using water as your heating medium ( assuming you are able to pressurize your jacket) you should install an air bleed (valve) so that you can purge air from the jacket during heat up. This will allow steam vapor to more completely occupy all of the head space within the jacket.
In other words, trapped air will reduce the available surface area during heat up.

My idea is to seal the internal card machine but not permanently so that I can take it out for emptying and cleaning, I would use some kind of gasket, do you think it would work? For the valve I had thought of those installed on pressure cookers, you can raise and let the air out and in the cooling phase you can use it to avoid a vacuum effect on the boiler, but I do not know if these valves are suitable or the pressure intervention is too high.I want to use only water.

[LWTCS]

Btw,
Oil works nicely because once at temp it does a very efficient job of holding temps with almost zero heat input.

Problem is it takes up a bunch of space/ mass and is slow to come to temp compared to water under pressure.

It is also completely unresponsive to adjustment once brought to temp.

A real pita when it's time to service your element.

Oil is also way more spendy than a few liters of water.

[LWTCS]

If you can't pressurize the jacket, oil is probably your best bet for a heating medium.
Peanut oil works well.

[LWTCS]

But if you can't pressurize the jacket, using water as the heating medium will make you want to shoot yourself.

[Demy]

But if you can't pressurize the jacket, using water as the heating medium will make you want to shoot yourself.

As mentioned above, I thought of a gasket between the internal and external boiler, I think that the very weight of the washing should keep it down otherwise I would build clamps but I would like to use only water and be able to remove the internal boiler for a thousand reasons ...

[LWTCS]

A thousand reasons?
I'm afraid I can't think of one within the context of cooking grains or distilling with grain in solids.

But if you plan on using your actual kettle ( inner wall ) to continue to make chicken soup or beef stew,,,,then I understand.
My wife is still pissed off at me for chopping up her best pot for converting to the Humper Thumper.
Guess I'll go to my grave for that one......

[Demy]

A thousand reasons?
I'm afraid I can't think of one within the context of cooking grains or distilling with grain in solids.

It will be a small boiler so I can remove it, empty it and refill it quickly and without inserting an outlet valve. I can intervene inside the internal boiler for modifications, repairs, etc. Distilling pomace, I can change the internal boiler with a perforated one at the bottom to make the vapors rise through the skins and steam distill etc. These are some reasons. Here is my idea of a seal between boilers.

Immagine 2.png (5.5 KiB) Viewed 3513 times

[LWTCS]

Ok, I guess?

With out a durable seal on the jacket,,,, you'll be a leak jockey and will always be positioned to prep for the "next upgrade ".

On the otherhand, I do like your ambition.

[Demy]

Ok, I guess?

With out a durable seal on the jacket,,,, you'll be a leak jockey and will always be positioned to prep for the "next upgrade ".

On the otherhand, I do like your ambition.

I read a lot about the subject here on the forum before creating the post, I certainly don't want to "reinvent the wheel" but I want to apply the system to my needs. The internal boiler will be filled with only 20-30 Lt, even if the same operating principle applies, it must be taken into account that it is not a great distiller. Above, in the first drawing, some measurements are shown. Flexibility is essential for me because I distill a lot of things and a removable boiler would be very convenient.

[LWTCS]

I would think a large diameter "cap" on your kettle would allow for easy access.
Simply having the ability to remove the inner wall so that you can rinse seems to me more like you are delaying the inevitable for a more optimal tool.

[LWTCS]

Don't be discouraged by my critique however.
I hope you can prove your point.

[dukethebeagle120]

Why not get a thumper and steam it out
A 15 .5 keg is easy to build
I do all grains and some fruit with a thumper
Better then straining or mop bucketing

[LWTCS]

Why not get a thumper and steam it out
A 15 .5 keg is easy to build
I do all grains and some fruit with a thumper
Better then straining or mop bucketing

A really valid point,,, within the context of cooking grains and distilling AG beer.

[JesseMarques]

Why not get a thumper and steam it out
A 15 .5 keg is easy to build
I do all grains and some fruit with a thumper
Better then straining or mop bucketing

This may sound like a good idea for OP needs, it's the easiest way to avoid leaks, it's very versatile and you can use water just in the first stripping, then you can put low wines in the boiler and wash with solids in the thumper

[LWTCS]

Why not get a thumper and steam it out
A 15 .5 keg is easy to build
I do all grains and some fruit with a thumper
Better then straining or mop bucketing

This may sound like a good idea for OP needs, it's the easiest way to avoid leaks, it's very versatile and you can use water just in the first stripping, then you can put low wines in the boiler and wash with solids in the thumper

Yep. Unless you go with full on pressure jacket, just seems like you're prioritizing your ability to remove the inner wall and place it in your dish washer (or the like). Cleaning the inner wall is just not that hard at this scale.

[dukethebeagle120]

Why not get a thumper and steam it out
A 15 .5 keg is easy to build
I do all grains and some fruit with a thumper
Better then straining or mop bucketing

This may sound like a good idea for OP needs, it's the easiest way to avoid leaks, it's very versatile and you can use water just in the first stripping, then you can put low wines in the boiler and wash with solids in the thumper

Lots of members are doing this.
I can think of a few of the more active ones
Sure isn't my idea,but good ideas are worth trying.
Retired the mop bucket a good while ago.
Just to easy for doing sloppy ferments.
Just don't fill more then about 10 gallons in thumper
It will fill with condensed steam.
To empty i dump into 5 gallon buckets.
A little heavy but doable

[shadylane]

But if you can't pressurize the jacket, using water as the heating medium will make you want to shoot yourself.

As mentioned above, I thought of a gasket between the internal and external boiler, I think that the very weight of the washing should keep it down otherwise.

At first glance, that sounds like it would work.
But after doing the math.
For ever 1 PSI in the jacket, on a 25cm dia. pot there's around a 76 pounds of pressure trying to push the internal pot up and out. If you used a 30cm pot there's 109 pounds.

[Demy]

I had already thought about the idea of the thumper and it gives a valid alternative but I don't want that. The bain marie would allow me a compact system, even when stored. The reason why I would like the removable internal boiler and why it is almost essential in removing, for example, the marc (which I remember is solid peel) and then as said it is a more versatile system, it would allow for example to insert an internal boiler with the bottom to steam distillation net and stuff like that. From what I have read you get more benefit from filling the jacket say in half and the rest will be steam so the upward thrust will be limited. A question has not yet been answered in the comments: could I use an external steel boiler (not stainless steel)?

[JesseMarques]

A question has not yet been answered in the comments: could I use an external steel boiler (not stainless steel)?

I guess you could, mostly because you want to build something you can disassemble, so you'll be able to constantly monitor the health of your external boiler. If vapor leaks are easy to deal with, i guess even aluminium could be used for this purpose

[LWTCS]

I had already thought about the idea of the thumper and it gives a valid alternative but I don't want that. The bain marie would allow me a compact system, even when stored. The reason why I would like the removable internal boiler and why it is almost essential in removing, for example, the marc (which I remember is solid peel) and then as said it is a more versatile system, it would allow for example to insert an internal boiler with the bottom to steam distillation net and stuff like that. From what I have read you get more benefit from filling the jacket say in halfNo. Not at all half way. Two reasons. 1. Less surface area for steam to make contact with. That translates to much slower heat up times. 2. The more space you have occupied by water the faster you will reach max pressure with less than optimal amount of heat being installed into the system because the steam needs to contact as much surface area as possible. Ideally you only want steam contacting the sides of your kettle walls. You want the least amount of water to safely cover your elements only. Any more than that and you'll be severely limiting your heating capability and the rest will be steam so the upward thrust will be limited. A question has not yet been answered in the comments: could I use an external steel boiler (not stainless steel)?

Also, The heat transfer with live steam is very very efficient. Much more so than a jacketed kettle.

Edit: Oh shoot. I didn't know the letters would be that darn big. Not yelling at all here. Sorry bout that.

[Demy]

Also, The heat transfer with live steam is very very efficient. Much more so than a jacketed kettle.

Edit: Oh shoot. I didn't know the letters would be that darn big. Not yelling at all here. Sorry bout that.

Thank you. I have read different water levels but this makes sense. Do you think that with an internal boiler of 20-25L the size of the jacket on the sides of 2.5 Cm could be sufficient?

[LWTCS]

You'll want clearance about like my amazing drawing above.

[Demy]

Screenshot_20201019-171450_Photo Editor.jpg

You'll want clearance about like my amazing drawing above.

Yes, I had done something like this at the beginning of the post but I was wondering if there was an ideal space or a proportion to respect.

[shadylane]

Don't mean to drag off topic.
Have you considered using external electric heaters
Basically, it's nothing more than a small electric oven, that the pots sits in.
Maybe use a shorted version of something like this.
It will do the same job as a baine marie

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