Where did my alcohol go?

[Taod]

So I have been running a small continuous unit with a pure sugar wAsh at 240g/liter which translates to 14.12% ( 17g/liter/percent alc) now , my waste liquid output is 99.5c using 2 digital thermometers just to be more accurate so should be .25% alc down drain . (14.12 -.25=13.8%) . The distillate out is at 90% alc with the virtical condensor cold half way way up so is functioning correct , no loss out top .
I check my sg upon making wash , amd after fermention . It's always deep into the red ( on my hydrometer ) so .995 .
I checked for leaks which you would smell anyway but none found .
So after all this checking here is what I am getting :
Feed in 115ml/min at 14.12%
Distillate out 12.8 ml/min at 90%
Theoretical max is 115ml x14.12% = 16.2 ml @100%( 100% used for comparison)
What I get is 12.8 ml min @ 90% or 11.6@ at 100% .

11.6/16.2=72.% efficiency
So where did th alcohol go ?
I also researched acetic acid ( vinigar ) but my buddy at winery said it would take weeks not 3-4 days ( turbo yeast ) to turn or produce plus I would smell it strongly

[kiwi Bruce]

Quick step back...a sugar wash, what was your recipe? What yeast did you use? did you have a pH buffer? Total volume of you wash? What was the volume of your produce? and the total produce volumes ABV? What "in theory" did you expect as your yield? what yield did you actually get?

[Taod]

Hello please re-read post all questions except ph were addressed . I drop the ph to 4.7 using citric acid . I make several hundred liter wAsh at same time as machich runs about 150l day
I believe I stated that in the post right at ththe beginning . 240g/liter sugar which at the standard of 17g/liter/1%alcohol is 14.12% abv . I use a 48 hour turbo with nutrients .

[Taod]

I built a 2 column unit using a slightly odd size at 1.85 " diameter
I built a small ss lp gas fired boiler running about 6100btu .
I use a series of heat exchangers intersecting the feed with the waste amd the burner exhaust .
Mash is pre heated from room temp to about 91c from the waste heat before injection into midddle of the first colmumn
I have a deflemegator usually placed between a vapour collection area and the main condensor on top
Average feed in is 115 ml/minute

[Pikey]

.....Mash is pre heated from room temp to about 91c from the waste heat before injection into midddle of the first colmumn ..........

Where does the vapour go from that preheater ? - There's potential for a lot of ethanol to be lost right there.

[Edit - we really need to see pictures and a diagram - We're firing a bit blind here, because we do drinking alc and you're clearly not going to drink what you get out of that ]

[HDNB]

my guess goes to the drain.alternately, the potential.

i'd collect some fresh and some waste and test it further. maybe use temp corrected SG weight/volume...it works for the revenuers. maybe a small lab still.

99.5*C corrected for altitude? at 99.5* in my boiler i'm still over 1% abv, maybe even close to 2 (mind, i wouldn't swear that thermometer is anything more than a decoration)

[kiwi Bruce]

So after all this checking here is what I am getting :
Feed in 115ml/min at 14.12%
Distillate out 12.8 ml/min at 90%
Theoretical max is 115ml x14.12% = 16.2 ml @100%( 100% used for comparison)
What I get is 12.8 ml min @ 90% or 11.6@ at 100% .
11.6/16.2=72.% efficiency

So...Not trying to bust your nuts but I'm not seeing it...What was the total volume of wash you run (at 14%)?
and what was the total yield (at ?%) I'm seeing vol/minute, which is your run rate, but not your starting and finishing amounts as a volumes.

Just trying to help

[Taod]

The waste when first leaving the. Bottom of the boiler is 99.5-100 c which correlates to .25-0 % wast according to raults boiling law but there are various alc/temp correlation charts to look at .
Once the 99.5 c is wast water leaves the boiler it passes through a series of heat exchangers pre heating the room temp fermented mash . So the 15c room temp mash has its temp raised to 91c through heat exchange from the 99.6"5 c waste water before wasted water goes down drain .

[Taod]

The volume is the same as the feed . So , 115 ml per minute = 6.9 liter per hour feed .
I get out 12.8 ml/minute which is 768 ml per hour at 90%

[Taod]

I run about 165 liter through the machine in a 24 hour period .producing 18.5 liter out at 90% . I normally run the machine 2-3 days before I shut it down .
1% alcohol is 98c
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_(data_page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
I use 2 digital thermometers at each measurement location . I also use laser thermometers fir spot testing .
I use platinum wire rtd probes hooked to pid fir temp control of the cooling drum ( use another series of heat exchanger to keep recirculating cool water to 20c) nd analysis throughout . I have 10 rtd probes from feed , to distillate as well as waste .
Upon start up I bring the system to 100c boiling to calibrate /check temp probes .

[Taod]

So I took a pic of a drawing /diagram with my phone but upload tool on site said 500kb max . I am surprised my iPhone 5 camera takes a too big pic . I thought I uploaded some before from my phone . Any suggestions?

[Taod]

I test the waste water out and it does check out alsmost pure water ,
I have a few hydrometers . 0-100% plus a 75-95 proof one from cole Palmer which is highly accurate between 37.% -45% down to a 20th of a pe cent (.02)
I also have a auto temp corrected refractometer

[hpby98]

So I took a pic of a drawing /diagram with my phone but upload tool on site said 500kb max . I am surprised my iPhone 5 camera takes a too big pic . I thought I uploaded some before from my phone . Any suggestions?

Upload to Imgur.com - it’ll also strip out your personal data

Post imgur links here that are large sized

[Taod]

https://imgur.com/a/qvdhv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It does not show but reflux is pumped from bottoms of second column to top of 1st

[Taod]

we really need to see pictures and a diagram - We're firing a bit blind here, because we do drinking alc and you're clearly not going to drink what you get out of that ]
Last edited by Pikey on Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pikey

We are drinking it . I make a neutral , reduce it to 50% , ( alcohol needs to be under 50% to be effectively filtered by carbon , cRbon works 50% better at 45 than it does at 50 % amd 100% better at 40% alco ) run it through activated carbon filters which I make for a living. It has a 6 hr contact time pumped through 2 carbon filters . Afterwhich it's reduced to 40% and filtered through sub micron particle filtration down to .35 micron . My buddies s drain me dry and buy various flavourings from liq**r quik amd a couple others . My buddies are drinker-ers as opposed to tinker-ers so I do all the work

Posts: 1947
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood
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[HDNB]

My boiler is 20l as well It's a 1.8" ss system . I am working on heat exchange system for another botanical extraction system and since I have always distilled I Made that to get data about heat exchange , and to be efficient making alcohol . My input flow rate is 6.9 l/hr my output is .778l/hr . I built all the heat exchangers my self and used small 12v pumps from eBay . I have a net loss of less than 10% waste heat . That unit is built on a shelf system I specifically built for the purpose . I don't see it being any more elaborate than the boka bob system or from Mother Earth just more detailed . Essentially it is a similar design to boka just not the plates .

[kiwi Bruce]

I run about 165 liter @ 14% ABV gives you a theoretical total of 23 liters producing 18.5 liter out at 90% total ethanol recovered 17 liters...your missing 6 liter of ethanol or a third of your expected recovery

You used 240grams/liter with a total of 165 liters...you had a full 40 Kilos of sugar in 165 liters of wash? I've got to redo this in lbs and gallons...165 liters = 43.5 gal and 40 Kilos of sugar = 88 lbs... that's 2 lbs per gal and that's only 11.9% ABV

It seems like a lot...however, how did you measure your starting ABV? If your wash is only down by 2% (12 instead of 14) there is your loss, it may only be in the numbers and not you or your equipment. Hope this helps, we are always ready to knock ourselves out, when it's just not the case.
"how did you measure your starting ABV" if its a standard hydrometer then it could be the temp of the wash or even CO2 that gave you an off number, if was with a refractometer the calibration may have been off.
Please someone else ck the math too...but Toad, I think you got all there was buddy...be grateful it's only a math loss and not a real one...kiwi

[HDNB]

Please someone else ck the math too.

Rad's calcs on the parent site:

Sugar Wash Calculator

240
sugar made up to
1000
total volume
should have an SG
1.092
and only require
225.07
of water
and should produce a wash of
14.1
% alcohol

[Taod]

Kiwi
Your math is wrong , you did too many equations and back .
It's: 17 gram sugar , per liter alcohol, per 1% alcohol.
So to make a10% wash you need 170 gram sugar per liter .
I actually make 200 liter washes ( full drum ) .
48 kg (105.6 lb) sugar dissolved in a 208 liter drum filled to 200 liter

[Taod]

When I do anything I have usually 3 separate ways of doing the figures .
As far as mash it's:
Measure sugar needed for volume at 17g sugar per percent per liter alcohol
Next is to measure after mixing with hydrometer. Sg hydrometer are not as affected by temp as much as alc or electrical conductivity. 10c (20-30 ) only represents .0048 sg
Finally a quick brix refraction test
Amd finally sg monitoring until wash fermented

[ShineRunner]

Sounds like you got it all figured out 3 ways. What’s the question?

I think I’m just too far in the bag to follow..

[zapata]

I think I'd rather buy cheap vodka unless I'm missing something here. No fores, no heads cut, just hope carbon does a good enough job? How is it worth the trouble to not just buy Aristocrat Vodka?

Can we see some actual pictures of the still. I think you know there's only 3 places for the alcohol to go. The drain, the jug or the air.
I have loads of questions for you, but some pictures would clear a lot of them up.

I am curious how you solved some of the logistical problems (pumping high proof hot reflux? Control the gravity feed?), but at the same time I've got to wonder about the why's of this project. It throws off a lot of red flags. Do you really sit there and watch it for 24 hours, or is it unattended? Who in holy tarnation needs to make 10-15 gallons of vodka a day? And at that you "normally" run it for "2-3 days". So on a somewhat regular basis you make 30 gallons of vodka a week? As much as 45 gallons of vodka in a week assuming 3 days and you were catching your missing spirit. I know you say thirsty friends, but thats a lot of thirsty friends.

[Pikey]

I think I'd rather buy cheap vodka unless I'm missing something here. No fores, no heads cut, just hope carbon does a good enough job? How is it worth the trouble to not just buy Aristocrat Vodka?

Can we see some actual pictures of the still. I think you know there's only 3 places for the alcohol to go. The drain, the jug or the air.
I have loads of questions for you, but some pictures would clear a lot of them up.

I am curious how you solved some of the logistical problems (pumping high proof hot reflux? Control the gravity feed?), but at the same time I've got to wonder about the why's of this project. It throws off a lot of red flags. Do you really sit there and watch it for 24 hours, or is it unattended? Who in holy tarnation needs to make 10-15 gallons of vodka a day? And at that you "normally" run it for "2-3 days". So on a somewhat regular basis you make 30 gallons of vodka a week? As much as 45 gallons of vodka in a week assuming 3 days and you were catching your missing spirit. I know you say thirsty friends, but thats a lot of thirsty friends.

Quite so - and "turbo yeast" as well - which is why I assumed he was not actually puttiing that into his body !

There is only one place I can see the "leakage" going - but we need both pictures and a proper diagram before making that judgement.

[kiwi Bruce]

Kiwi Your math is wrong

Never drink and drive a calculator! How may times do I have to be TOLD! Bad Kiwi, BAD BAD!

Sorry my bad...

[Taod]

One ,, it's a misconception that heads amd tails, specificcaly methananol acetone , ISO propynol exist in a sugar wash .
Try to do the opposite , actually try to make those chemical componounds with pure sugar . Methanol for example , is from pectin , methyl esters of galactose . You can't . Same with the rest.
That's the chemistry .
We used to run batch still when we started amd we kept all the heads and tails we took off . We just cut the top 15 % regardless of the temp was at 78.1 , amd the tails the minute the temp rose past 80 c .
Then we ran all of it And the temps went right to 78.1 amd stayed there
So curious I called my buddy at York U in tornto and they ran it on a gas / liquid chromatography and it was completely clean even before the carbon treatment .
Now as far as vodka there is a great boook called "fermented beverage production " by piggot . There is a section on vodka that goes into great detail about the origins of vodka were from re using waste veg and grain production that was fermented to recycdle everything amd then distill it until you get rid of the foul taste .its irrelevant of the carb source for true vodka today's vodka is a processed industry much like ice wine . You made icewine when you fucked up your grape harvest timing.
I make neutral spirit for my local country community . Some drink it as such , a lot of people make cordials . They all chip into buying supplies and equipment so I can continue my research which is botanical extraction but am using alcohol to do th research amd get numbers in a book as it's a binary sunbstance for the most part . No one will give me money to make botanical oils at this point .

[Taod]

Now with all that said ....my alcohol is back ! Wtf !
So what changed is a new yeast bag .
Same sg , same sugar amount , but now the alcohol is there 100%
Is there any yeAst, fungas , bacteria that can also reduce the sg of a sugar wash but not produce alcohol other then the one that produces vinigar amd will do it in under 10
Days ?
I was sort of thinking this up front as my buddy at the winery noticed the same thing even though we used a different yeast but from the same supplier

[Taod]

Also a note about vodkas in Canada and maybe USA . In the book" fermented beverage production "it states ( its a commercial production book ) that in Europe if you reduce the alcohol you take off at from a grain mash to 94 from 95 there is enough congenerss in it to still sell it as whiskey if made from grain ( in the EU) Where as some well known grain Vodkas distill this way , ( belvedere which is rye and Chopin which can b rye potatoe or wheat ) so vodka sold in Canada as choice premium vodka can be sold as whiskey ( for blending ) in the EU

[Taod]

I also do have other attachments to take heads or tails off as we do a fruit run now amd then . You just add some inline condemsors . Aramongac is a single distillation continuous product .

[Taod]

Now the reflux pump , is a little 12v unit from eBay for solar heating system . About 25$ , good to 120c although I have a little 2" computer fan on it . It will pump hot reflux 9 ' . I use one for the feed too with a cheap adjustable flow meter from eBay I don't use gravity feed . They ar completely chemically inert . Impervious to everything I know. I use sodium hydroxide and hcl , for other things I work on , amd use these to pump it around as well . https://m.ebay.ca/itm/DC-12V-24V-5M-3M- ... rCv8qPfN0g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[ShineRunner]

Now the reflux pump , is a little 12v unit from eBay for solar heating system . About 25$ , good to 120c although I have a little 2" computer fan on it . It will pump hot reflux 9 ' . I use one for the feed too with a cheap adjustable flow meter from eBay I don't use gravity feed . They ar completely chemically inert . Impervious to everything I know. I use sodium hydroxide and hcl , for other things I work on , amd use these to pump it around as well . https://m.ebay.ca/itm/DC-12V-24V-5M-3M- ... rCv8qPfN0g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Are you saying you’re pumping hot reflux- high proof, high temperature alcohol- through your pump?!?