Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

Have to completely disagree with the notion of "his life, his choice." In the very least case it is socially irresponsible. Wonder how the members of his community felt? Wonder how they dealt with press coverage of a so-called legend doing that. Sick or not, there was no inevitable or "only choice" scenario at work. He could have served his time and paid his accrued debt to society as a citizen is required by the rule of law to do. It is cowardly on the grounds of civil duty alone. He had a debt to pay. What example does this set for young people? "If you get in trouble just hook up your car with a hose and you won't have to worry about serving your time." I don't believe anyone would want their children to hold this up as an example.

Here's where you run into trouble. By requiring the man to meet his civil responsibility as a habitual law-breaker, it is not denying him of his power of freewill. So the whole "his life, his choice" thing is absolutely unreasoned. That's knee jerk reasoning and establishes nothing, and provides the most arbitrary observation available. Doesn't take much to say that at all. Ultimately it really was his choice to do make the choice he did, but he would have been in the minority as to how his loved one's and valued acquaintenances would have viewed the situations. I know because I know alot of them, and I can tell you he really hurt more people by doing that than were otherwise satisfied by the "his life" thing. Yes, he did do what he wanted to do, but what he did at the time was obviously driven by fear and hopelessness, not a happy, "my life is going well," attitude. The fact that you can be so casually and distanced from it determined by your proximity more than any valid point, so it will be acknowledged as such.

But as it stand, it's done, long ago. I can only wonder what he might have done if he'd finally gotten a legitimate operation going and start to reap some rewards of the work he'd done for years and get some valid recognition rather than notoriety. I can assure you his wife felt that way, and she had more right than most to have a say in the matter as she, more than anyone else, was deprived of her social partner and significant person in her life. She knew he was going to do what he wanted, but she also knew that his reactions to his environment were often both spiteful and extreme and he suffered the most. Cutting off the nose to spite the face, so to speak. So yes, it was a very miserably surmised decision from any possible angle. And he made and enacted that choice that morning, but that doesn't mean it was overflowing with social and familial blessings and satisfaction, more like a torturous hell and limbo.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

Let me paint an example from "This is the last damn run of Likker I'm ever gonna make."

Throughout the video in his deadpan delivery of his sardonic and threadbare view of the world he clearly paints himself as "the last distiller who can make it," and "after this it'll be the last in the world."

That's total BS. In that one statement he's basically said that anyone else distilling simply doesn't matter next to his corn and sugar liquor? Well that's just plain BS. What are us guys doing here in this community? To paint this picture of him being "the last one," who distills whiskey in a non-legal fashion is just silly. That he would have seriously viewed himself that way speaks pretty loudly about where his head might have been in those last years. Like some kind've terminal desparation at looking back and not really having much to show for it other than being a well known moonshine/legend sort've person. I say give him shows and movies and let the money go to his wife, she needs to be taken care of and I hope the operation started after he died benefits her.

For years I operated my little permit operation built a few stills, learning all grain mashes and experimental approaches, relying very heavily on this forum for information. But I never once had any need to reference Marvin Sutton's distillation practices, and I really doubt that anyone else here does either.

He was a personality. He was a "character" in local lore who had years and years of skirting the law built up around him. Shame he never really made alot of money from doing it legal because he could have, but never would have under any circumstances as I understood him, though I did not know him personally and never really sought him out. I have family that knew his family, basically. Sure it would have been cool to watch him up close or listen to him talk. He was a likable person at one level. But that's about it. I don't personally subscribe to the "legend" stuff if that means that his being some legend meant that he was the only person who ever made good corn liquor. But he would have not been concerned with what I think by any stretch, nor any of his close associates, and my little opinion on Marvin Sutton and a nickel might get a piece of bubble gum.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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I think you missed an important part. You're saying that many if not all HD members make a superior product to Popcorn. I might agree, but he made and SOLD his. Not many people are left that are willing to take the risk of jail / prison. He wasn't competing with or talking about hobbyists. He was referring to his competitors.

As far as recipe is concerned. I would think most moonshiners of yester year made a sugar wash of sort. Why go through the labor of mashing, when the buyer isn't going to pay extra? We are talking black market.

As for demeanor and looks, he is a backwoods guy. They still exist today. Use of metaphors and wearing overalls is very common in east tn and western nc. A few sentences into a conversation can tell you if someone is a native. Just in east tn, their is a huge difference between valley people and mountain people.

You may not like him, but I believe he was genuine in the last run. Did he become an attention whore? Sure but who doesn't like recognition and acknowledged for their perceived success.

I know he influenced my interest.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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SmokyMtn wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 7:44 am I think you missed an important part. You're saying that many if not all HD members make a superior product to Popcorn. I might agree, but he made and SOLD his. Not many people are left that are willing to take the risk of jail / prison. He wasn't competing with or talking about hobbyists. He was referring to his competitors. Naw. Though certainly not condoned here in these forums, there has with out a doubt been an actual shiner or two come through here every now and again. And there's several legal operators that come through here too that make a good drop. Not sure where I was going with this other than not everybody wants low quality surgarshine and there's likely others that nobody ever heard of that makes a better drop than Popcorn.
I'd bet there is lots of contempt among some of the real old gents because Popcorn didn't stick to the old code of keeping his mouth shut. Just speculating is all.


As far as recipe is concerned. I would think most moonshiners of yester year made a sugar wash of sort. Why go through the labor of mashing, when the buyer isn't going to pay extra? We are talking black market. well up until modern sugar processing AND an efficient distribution network was developed it would have been what ever fermentable source was available. Prior to that "table" sugar was a real luxury and dear.
If you lived in peach country, then your shine was likely peaches. If you lived in corn county then your shine was likely corn, and so forth and so on.


As for demeanor and looks, he is a backwoods guy. They still exist today. Use of metaphors and wearing overalls is very common in east tn and western nc. A few sentences into a conversation can tell you if someone is a native. Just in east tn, their is a huge difference between valley people and mountain people. it's like that everywhere on the planet.

You may not like him, but I believe he was genuine in the last run. Did he become an attention whore? Sure but who doesn't like recognition and acknowledged for their perceived success. agree

I know he influenced my interest.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Having made a go at turning pro, I would love to see home distilling be legal. The current regulations mean you need to make a lot of spirits to make any money. That means either buy and resell or build a damn big facility. No way to be small and make enough to get by. Wish I could cause that’s what I would love to do.

It would be a lot of fun to be able to make a batch of whiskey and share it with friends and not have to be breaking the law. If there was a simple limit on still size of about 30 gallons, that would cover it as you need a lot bigger still than 30 gallons to make any money.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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bluefish_dist wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:47 pm Having made a go at turning pro, I would love to see home distilling be legal. The current regulations mean you need to make a lot of spirits to make any money. That means either buy and resell or build a damn big facility. No way to be small and make enough to get by. Wish I could cause that’s what I would love to do.

It would be a lot of fun to be able to make a batch of whiskey and share it with friends and not have to be breaking the law. If there was a simple limit on still size of about 30 gallons, that would cover it as you need a lot bigger still than 30 gallons to make any money.
Unless you live in a state that let's you sell cocktails out of your tasting room, I'd say you'd need to be at a 1000L ( 264 gallon) kettle charge or better to make money. And when I say money I'm not talking about just enough to cover the overhead.
Any smaller and you definitely better keep your day job.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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bluefish_dist wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:47 pm Having made a go at turning pro, I would love to see home distilling be legal. The current regulations mean you need to make a lot of spirits to make any money. That means either buy and resell or build a damn big facility. No way to be small and make enough to get by. Wish I could cause that’s what I would love to do.

It would be a lot of fun to be able to make a batch of whiskey and share it with friends and not have to be breaking the law. If there was a simple limit on still size of about 30 gallons, that would cover it as you need a lot bigger still than 30 gallons to make any money.
If there were no money in liquor, why are distilleries in business? The government doesn't care about scale, they
care about their cut of the money.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Oh dear.
Can let some of the pros here enlighten your point of view on that one.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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SmokyMtn wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 4:58 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:47 pm Having made a go at turning pro, I would love to see home distilling be legal. The current regulations mean you need to make a lot of spirits to make any money. That means either buy and resell or build a damn big facility. No way to be small and make enough to get by. Wish I could cause that’s what I would love to do.

It would be a lot of fun to be able to make a batch of whiskey and share it with friends and not have to be breaking the law. If there was a simple limit on still size of about 30 gallons, that would cover it as you need a lot bigger still than 30 gallons to make any money.
If there were no money in liquor, why are distilleries in business? The government doesn't care about scale, they
care about their cut of the money.
I didn’t say there was not any money in it. Just you have to be fairly big to make money. I will do some simple math, you can sell at about $100/gallon, gross margin 70%. Want to clear $100k per year, let’s figure $75k per year fixed costs probably far too low. So we need to make $175k per year to make $100k + $75 fixed costs. That means we need to gross $250k. Which is 2500 gallons of bottled product per year. That 48 gallons per week. So let’s call that 50 for easy math. Means you have to make and bottle 250 bottles per week. To make 50 gallons per week you need to distill about 500 gallons of mash a week or two runs of a 250 gallon still.
Now for each person you add at -$30k per year with all costs, that an additional 8 gallons per week. As you can see if you have big equipment and few people as distilling scales very easily. Hardly any extra work to make 1000 gallons vs making 100.

Now let’s look at a big distillery, say $25 million in sales, that a $17 million gross profit. Can cover a lot of costs with that. But you also have to make 250,000 gallons of spirits. That’s almost 5000 gallons or 100 barrels per week of finished product. Which is 50,000 gallons per week of fermentation. With a 2 year aging process you need 12000 barrels since you lose so much to aging. About 5000 bottles per day, bottled. You need some serious equipment to make that happen and a lot of capital to cover the cost of your barreled product not to mention the space to store all the barrels.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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I was chatting with the owner of a micro brewery the other day, and the subject changed to the feasibility of establishing a new (craft, artisan or micro) - distillery.

The state of New Mexico is not as backward about liquor as some other states are but it does have some peculiarities. For example there is only a limited number of full liquor retail licenses available for the whole state. Someone wishing to establish a new restaurant or bar with the intention of selling mixed drinks – must pony up close to half a million buck$ to purchase a pre-existing license because the state will not issue new (full) liquor licenses. The state has and will issue new beer & wine or micro-brewery and micro distillery licenses though. At present N.M. has 10 micro distilleries, with another one in the works.

Establishing a new micro-distillery would require an investment in both time and money. It would take about 2 years before you could sell your first product and you would need to have big pockets full of money or investors in the background beforehand – willing to risk $300,000 to $500,000 worth of money - just to get started.

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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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I have a customer map in the office. Basically flagged pins stuck into a giant map of the US and lower Canada.
The pins are clustered in such a way that pretty accurately illustrates where the distillery hotspots are here in the US.
My map is very much similar to the very same map ADI uses with respect to where the most distilling activities are.

Not much going on in New Mexico for some reason?

Interestingly, California (a state thought to heavily tax it's constituents) is among the nation's lowest state tax on alcohol production per proof gallon. Lots of activity in Cali.

On the other hand in New Hampshire there is no state tax. And I wouldn't call it a hot spot at all. Dunno why more distilleries would not try and exploit the states with the lowest state tax per proof gallon?
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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contrahead wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:08 am
For example there is only a limited number of full liquor retail licenses available for the whole state. Someone wishing to establish a new restaurant or bar with the intention of selling mixed drinks – must pony up close to half a million buck$ to purchase a pre-existing license because the state will not issue new (full) liquor licenses.
It's just as expensive (if not more) here in CA. As of 2017 the cost of a 'full' liquor license was listed at $12k - $400k, depending on location.

This is a little off-topic, but still relates to illicit alcohol culture. Back in the 70's I attended a family funeral service at the home of my deceased uncle's sister. Her husband had done time after being conviction for 'arranging for' liquor licenses, but apparently was able to retain much of his 'winnings', living a quite lavish lifestyle. He lived in an uber-exclusive Los Angeles neighborhood where Jerry Buss (late LA Lakers owner) lived down the street and his neighbor directly across the street was Muhammad Ali. I still kick myself for not walking over and asking to meet him, but I was still in high school. As we were leaving, "Uncle Nate' gave me a cuban churchill cigar that to this day is unquestionably the finest smoke I have ever had.

Apparently, liquor licenses have an intrinsic value to them that is hard to resist, no matter the cost.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by contrahead »

Twisted Brick wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 12:09 pm "Uncle Nate' gave me a cuban churchill cigar that to this day is unquestionably the finest smoke I have ever had.
It sounds like your “Uncle Nate” and Tom Pendergast had something in common.

There is much difference of opinion concerning liquor laws, between states. To the north of New Mexico is Colorado - which has a much less corrupt or stifling attitude about liquor. Forty years ago 3.2 beer bars for 18 yr old college students was a common sight in Colorado. Today authorities in NM are actively traveling around, intentionally setting up sting operations in attempts to entrap liquor store or bar owners that might mistakenly sell to the under aged. In restaurants, decrepit, white haired senior citizens without ID's don't get to drink.

To the west of Colorado is Utah, with perhaps the most restrictive laws in the country. Any carry away liquor in Utah stronger than a 5% ABV domestic beer must be purchased in a State Liquor Store. Bordering Colorado on the eastern side is Kansas – a state equally as domineering as Utah (its a toss-up). In the 1970s, the Kansas Attorney General raided Amtrak trains traveling through Kansas and forced airlines to stop serving liquor while traveling through Kansas airspace.

It was in Kansas that the infamous, hatchet wielding, temperance movement radical named Carrie Nation gained her celebrity. A bubble off of being plum, she was arrested at least 32 times for walking into saloons and busting up private property. But the rest of Kansas thought like she did. While most of the country repealed the 18th amendment (1919) by ratifying the 21st amendment (1933) Kansas did not. Kansas kept prohibition in effect until 1948 (with the convenient exception of 3.2 beer – which they classified as a cereal malt beverage).

Bordering Kansas on its eastern side is its alter ego – the state of Missouri. Missouri (home of Anheuser-Busch) has possibly the most permissive liquor laws in the country and it would be possible to home-distill there were it not for superseding federal law. In this bread basket/bible belt/heartland of the country, it is interesting to view the dichotomy of attitude between states. Missouri and Kansas have been rivals since well before the Civil War. Missouri had its “Border Ruffians" or "Bushwhackers” (pro-slavery activists) and Kansas had its “Jayhawkers”and “Red Legs” (free-state radical militants).

Like a chess board squares from left to right it is curious how prejudice for or against liquor played out historically. Utah, Colorado, Kansas and Missouri in a row. Hot, cold, hot, cold.

A map showing dry (red), wet (blue), and mixed (yellow) counties in the United States as of March 2012.

There are 17 Alcoholic beverage controlled states in the US and Kansas is not one of them. The other 33 states licenses private enterprises to buy and sell alcohol at state discretion.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Twisted Brick »

Well written piece, contrahead. God how I love American history and lore, especially when it involves alcohol.

I have lived in CA my entire life, and have always joked that there is a liquor store (or grocery/pharmacy with extensive liquor dept) on virtually every corner, and many in between. Imagine the shock I got straight out of college during a weeklong training class in New Jersey. I literally had to drive for miles to find what they then called carry-outs to find a tiny little liquor store. I was in Kansas (Overland Park) last year for a family reunion/50th wedding anniversary and same thing. When I was in Federal Way (Seattle) Trader Joe's liquor dept manager explained to me how the lack of state income tax is made up by taxing smokes and alcohol, using rates based on ABV and size of container it comes in. No wonder there are so many 'stillers in WA state.

The local distillery I recently offered to volunteer in making hand-sanitizer has been the victim of CA ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control) sting operations twice in the last 24mo's. But KS prohibiting sales of alcohol in airspace takes the cake.

Hey - good 'ol Tom Pendergast lasted until 73. Not bad for his time.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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I watched the film a few times and appreciated it.

I do not however think the man was some kind-of moonshine god, maybe amongst a few thousand believers. He had some great practices going on and kept his balls despite smoking up a stack of cigarettes in every scene or moonshine shine wood under the fire. I appreciate his enthusiasm to live free or do not die on the knees.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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As a former distillery owner in Texas, I would recommend you stay away from opening distillery in TX. The 3 tier system(no direct sale to package stores), the state license fee 7K for 2 years, the county fee(up to 1/2 of the state fee) and the city fee (yup you guessed it up to 1/2 of the sate fee) do not make for a good micro distillery business. Thank God we were able to sell in our tasting room cocktails and 2 bottles per person per month to stay afloat. Now if you have some land, a great tasting venue and picnic type of setup you might can make it. But, Ill be damn honest....I paid the same price in licensing and fees as Tito's Vodka, so unless your making a lot there is no chance to profit. Funny thing, the cost of breweries, and brew pub are scaled on production numbers, as well as wine, but not distilled spirits. I Lost my shirt trying to run a distillery on a shoestring budget. After fees, taxes, rent and production costs, we never made a profit in 3 years.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Well.. a purple rabbit shitting in an American toilet design (your profile pic) sure, seemed to help the case.. Maybe you had a slightly screwed business plan? I don't remember what Texas has to do with Popcorn or all the sudden showing up to bitch about Tito's crap "Dog" vodka?
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Dewstiller wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:54 pm Well.. a purple rabbit shitting in an American toilet design (your profile pic) sure, seemed to help the case.. Maybe you had a slightly screwed business plan? I don't remember what Texas has to do with Popcorn or all the sudden showing up to bitch about Tito's crap "Dog" vodka?
Yeah I guess I missed the part where the last few convesations in the topic were discussing going pro... Guess I can leave all the insights to you as a month old member. Jeez!
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Business is business.. Complaining is complaining? Texas is Texas? There are many other countries outside of Texas were they keep Beef Jerky the same viable price as Bucc-ees
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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contrahead wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:12 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 12:09 pm "Uncle Nate' gave me a cuban churchill cigar that to this day is unquestionably the finest smoke I have ever had.
It sounds like your “Uncle Nate” and Tom Pendergast had something in common.

There is much difference of opinion concerning liquor laws, between states. To the north of New Mexico is Colorado - which has a much less corrupt or stifling attitude about liquor. Forty years ago 3.2 beer bars for 18 yr old college students was a common sight in Colorado. Today authorities in NM are actively traveling around, intentionally setting up sting operations in attempts to entrap liquor store or bar owners that might mistakenly sell to the under aged. In restaurants, decrepit, white haired senior citizens without ID's don't get to drink.

To the west of Colorado is Utah, with perhaps the most restrictive laws in the country. Any carry away liquor in Utah stronger than a 5% ABV domestic beer must be purchased in a State Liquor Store. Bordering Colorado on the eastern side is Kansas – a state equally as domineering as Utah (its a toss-up). In the 1970s, the Kansas Attorney General raided Amtrak trains traveling through Kansas and forced airlines to stop serving liquor while traveling through Kansas airspace.

It was in Kansas that the infamous, hatchet wielding, temperance movement radical named Carrie Nation gained her celebrity. A bubble off of being plum, she was arrested at least 32 times for walking into saloons and busting up private property. But the rest of Kansas thought like she did. While most of the country repealed the 18th amendment (1919) by ratifying the 21st amendment (1933) Kansas did not. Kansas kept prohibition in effect until 1948 (with the convenient exception of 3.2 beer – which they classified as a cereal malt beverage).

Bordering Kansas on its eastern side is its alter ego – the state of Missouri. Missouri (home of Anheuser-Busch) has possibly the most permissive liquor laws in the country and it would be possible to home-distill there were it not for superseding federal law. In this bread basket/bible belt/heartland of the country, it is interesting to view the dichotomy of attitude between states. Missouri and Kansas have been rivals since well before the Civil War. Missouri had its “Border Ruffians" or "Bushwhackers” (pro-slavery activists) and Kansas had its “Jayhawkers”and “Red Legs” (free-state radical militants).

Like a chess board squares from left to right it is curious how prejudice for or against liquor played out historically. Utah, Colorado, Kansas and Missouri in a row. Hot, cold, hot, cold.

A map showing dry (red), wet (blue), and mixed (yellow) counties in the United States as of March 2012.

There are 17 Alcoholic beverage controlled states in the US and Kansas is not one of them. The other 33 states licenses private enterprises to buy and sell alcohol at state discretion.
Great write up. I too like distilling history. THe state laws are screwy for sure. In Missouri you can home distill according to the state but the federal law overrides the state law. I would take that to mean it's ok to distill and the state won't bother you but the feds could knock at your door. Here's a quote I found and I am sure there is more around like it.
Image result for is home distilling allowed in missouri
"In Missouri, for example, a person 21 or over may produce up to 100 gallons of spirits per year for personal consumption without a permit. But federal law trumps state law, and to the feds, distilling at home for personal consumption is illegal, period.Jan 27, 2014"
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

Here we are in 2023. I lost contact with this excellent site. It seems like it exploded after the original "Flute Talk" thread. It also looks like the flute configurations has taken the hobby distillation world by storm. And now I'm seeing these incredible continuous systems.

I am so impressed with the way things work on this site as a reflection of the intelligence and ingenuity of the modern distiller. I've started
coming back regularly because there is so much new information.

Back when I wrote that first post somewhat dissing Popcorn, I could have been more thoughtful. That was before "Moonshiners" took off and now all of those negative bawdy stereotypes luanched by Popcorn have gained an entirely new cast and presence through scripts and acting, and cable profits in the offing.

Tim Smith, at one time, was a very large scale moonshiner. He said in the original Nat Geo documentary that "it was just sugar likker, but it took three days to run it all off." So he was doing the do. Also the Chuck guy that actually owns Belmost Farms and sells actual pure corn whiskey got involved. But the rest of them, particularly "Tickle" look and sound like idiots, it's detestable.

I wouldn't have said this at the time, but around the 2016 era I had gotten a fuel permit and was making alot of all grain mashes. My Italian wife and I have been out here in Dallas for 6 or 7 years, and I've been writing books and have started a small coffee roastery. I'm also pputting together a business plan to go micro out here at some point.

I love this website. I think it's one of the best repositories of distillation information in any medium.

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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Bushman »

Welcome back after several years absence, and yes there have been substantial gains made by both the hobbyist and the craft distillery industry in innovative ideas on all levels.
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LWTCS
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by LWTCS »

Welcome back Dan.
Didn't realize you haven't been around.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
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