Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

The long and storied history of distilled spirits.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

Guys,

I got to know the master distiller and he invited me over for a visit, talk and "inside" tour of their facilities, last weekend. Did I have a great weekend? O yes I did!

They still make genever the old way. Not a grain neutral spirit with juniper infusion. But a true all grainer, mostly based on 1/3 rye, malt, corn. And preferably "Western Flanders Style", so actually without any herbs or berries. Does that give a whisk(e)y? Yes, in a way it does. But it is different too. I will try to explain.

Genever is fermented and distilled on the grain. So it isn't made from a beer. I asked him why and he told me that this is the way you make genever. And it is the best way, since making it from beer (so without fermenting on the grain and distilling on the grain), gives a much thinner taste. The reason why it is made from/on the grain, where for instance the Scottish make a beer first, has to do with history he told me. In Scottland distilling started from breweries having excess beer. In Flanders it started (and continues to this day) with an excess in grains.

And a genever Western Flanders style is distilled three times. First cuts are made on the second (potstill) run. Small cuts, giving a semi-ready product with some heads & tails present. Perfect for a third distillation with herbs and berries and another series of cuts. Or just make a third distillation without herbs or berries, because that's the way they do it of old in this most western Belgium department. I thought that way had died out, because legally genever now needs to have juniper in it.

When the master distiller showed me the barrel warehouse, a nice glass was awaiting me. From his oldest barrel. From 1969. Over 40 years in a barrel. Ageing had dropped the original 61% down to 59% (but the total volume had decreased much more than that). The drink was then diluted to a drinking strength of 46% without filtration.

I tried it. I loved it. "Where is the juniper in there?" I asked him. He asked back: "In a product so beautiful and complex, who needs juniper berries?" And he was right. The drinks he makes, he prefers to make without herbs and berries. And due to the distillation and fermentation method (on the grain), it isn't needed either.

The drink was complex in taste. Somewhere in between a whisk(e)y and a genever with berries and herbs. Is distilling and fermenting on the grain such a big difference? Yes it seems so. More taste than a regular whisk(e)y. And by a factor 2 at least. And a more complex taste at that. Lots of "herby" notes that I would not have associated with "just" grains. But they are there. Good news. Now all we have to do is find them!

Or could it have been the 42 year ageing process? The wood? No way. After a two hours tour and long talks of which I feel I shouldn't tell everything (would feel like a breech of trust in a way), we went back to the blending room. Four different "moutwijn" (maltwines semi-ready product, double distilled), two "korenwijn" (triple distilled ready products, but not aged or barreled yet), a 14 year old genever and a double distllied single malt newmade spirit. The "moutwijns" were good. Headsy, tailsy (semi-ready, remember), but with so much taste. Like eating whole grain / whole wheat bread. The 60% rye stood out as best. Then came the "Korenwijns". The third distillation with extra cuts turned it into a very nice, complex drink. Ready to go. Just 5 weeks of rest. The barrel ageing of the 42 year old and 14 year old add to the equasion (wood and extra complexity), but the drink in itsself does not need ageing to mellow out. Or excess heads & tails present for taste development. There is so much taste already. The double distilled single malt was ... not that interesting. Even though as a finished whisky it rates like 88 points, so must be good.

The 14 year old genever was good. Very much like the 42 year old. Master distiller told me that the product itsself does not evolve. And drinking the Korenwijn ... he is right. Due to good cuts, the 5 weeks rest is enough. Ageing in barrels adds tastes, but is not needed to mellow the newmade spirit out. Maybe not heads and tails are needed, because the on the grain ferment and distillation gives so much taste?

What I learned is that in this way, you get a product with more taste in itsself (not talking berries & herbs) than any whisk(e)y I tried. And that there is a lot more complexity of taste in grains then I ever imagined.

O, and on the way out, the distiller gave me 5 liters of 61% abv moutwijn made out of 60% rye. My favourit. To experiment with. And that is what I will do. Half I will re-distill into a rye whiskey. The other half I will make a genever with juniper and other herbs from.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Durace11
Distiller
Posts: 1137
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Durace11 »

WE ARE NOT WORTHY, WE ARE NOT WORTHY, WE ARE NOT WORTHY!

Damn Odin, that sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Very jealous. I hope you picked up some additional brewing/distilling habits you will slowly divulge to the community with your future creations.
Current Evolution:
MrDistiller > 2" potstill > copper 4" perf 4 plate flute

"I seal the lid with Silly Putty, that's OK ain't it ?"
~ kekedog13

"Attach a vibrator to it and hang it upside down. Let it work"
~Mr. P
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

Man, this WAS an experience of a lifetime! Sometimes it was like "what the heck"? Like them not using berries & herbs, but still getting so much taste over. In grain, but also in fruitiness, herby-ness.

How can they make a drink that does not need to mellow out (well, maybe 5 weeks)? How can they get over so much taste? How can they get such a clean yet complex product? I know their cuts (at least the heads cut) and it is really not big at all. Au contraire.

Some thinking of my own. If you ferment on the grain, maybe you aim for a lower abv (less grain per ml water), not to "soup" stress the shit out of them yeasties. A "beer" (let's call it that for the moment) of 4% that is fully done will get concentrated 10 times in a final drink of 40%. That's double the concentration of a 8% beer into a 40% final likker ...

And the copper helps, I think, in the "not having to mellow out" department. And if I saw something ... this drink gets so much copper thrown at it. Relatively small stills, all copper. The columned stills also being all copper, throwing that grain around ...

The columns they actually have to replace every 20 to 25 years, because they thin out so much, they would otherwise crack ...

No difference between a drink of 5 weeks and 42 years. Apart from wood complexity. In the geneva. The single malt newmade spirit was made the Scottish way. No fermenting on the grain, no distilling on the grain. So much less taste. And a product that really needed time to mellow out.

I want an au bain marie still! Like that I can ferment and distill on the grain. This visit has set a whole new goal for me. It actually changed (or is changing) my paradigm. This much complexity out of something as simple as grain? Wow.

If I compare it to the most complex whiskies I drank (Islay), it is a different ball game. In a way this "genever without herbs" has the cleanness, the straightforwardness of an American style whiskey and at the same time the complexite of an Islay single malt. Only the complexity comes from the grain, and not from the wood, the jodium or the turf. I guess that is where the "straightforwardness" comes into my mind.

They make single malt as well at EUR 35,- per 0.7 liter glass bottle. The 14 year old genever goes for EUR 22,-. In an earthenwork (pottery) bottle, with wax, with a glass, in a nice box. One liter at that. Why would anybody here buy single malt (an Islay can easily be up to EUR 80,-), if you can buy almost 50% more likker for just EUR 22,-? Okay, the Islay gives you a hangover for free, and that is not included in the Filliers genever.

I hereby declare the people living in the low countries to be the most stupid of the world. At least the people buying expensive single malts, when something so great is so close at hand!

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Durace11
Distiller
Posts: 1137
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Durace11 »

I bet the "Western Flanders Style" yeast give it the fruity flavors. I know the belgium yeasts can get really interesting in beer so it sounds like translating that into a distilled spirit is what they have captured.
Current Evolution:
MrDistiller > 2" potstill > copper 4" perf 4 plate flute

"I seal the lid with Silly Putty, that's OK ain't it ?"
~ kekedog13

"Attach a vibrator to it and hang it upside down. Let it work"
~Mr. P
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

Closer towards Brussels they have this famous Lambiek beer. It is made by wild fermentation (that is neatly kept in place - or give a place - by the roof tiles of the building where they ferment). Seems the "Leye river" flora is very special indeed. And the Leye is not that far away. Might be part of the answer and I like the way you are thinking this out ... But it isn't what makes it special. For fermentation they use very standard yeasts, available to you and me. Nothing special, nothing "wilde".

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Prairiepiss
retired
Posts: 16571
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 am
Location: Somewhere in the Ozarks

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Prairiepiss »

Jealous. :twisted:

Does sound like a once in a lifetime experience. More for you being the genever freak you are. Ment to be a compliment not derogatory. :ewink:

So now you have me cornfused. From reading your past posts along with a little other reading. I thought genever was basically the grand father of gin. Using botanicals in more of a rougher spirit. Not a true neutral. But from this post I'm lost to the actual meaning of the word genever? Are you saying they don't use botanicals in their genever? If so what makes a genever a genever not a whiskey? Or would genever be more defined as a very flavorful spirit. With no required flavors. IE juniper. Just that they are strong and good? I'm guessing here. I'm still lost as all get out. Maybe I'm not reading your post correctly?

Side note I've been really wanting to distill on the grain. But I'm leaning more toward steam injection. As it is easier for me to adapt equipment I already have in place. Would this give the same outcome? Or close enough?
It'snotsocoldnow.

Advice For newbies by a newbie.
CM Still Mods
My Stuffs
Fu Man

Mr. Piss
That's Princess Piss to the haters.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

And you think you are confused?

;)

Okay, yes, some explanation is needed. A geneva is a grain based drink redistilled with herbs containing at least juniper. A young style geneva and/or gin uses grain neutral, an old style geneva (true geneva) is more of a whiskey base, distilled again with herbs. Let's concentrate on that, because that makes it easier. Whiskey = distilled grain wash, gin/young style geneva (okay there are differences, but ...) are sorta vodka's with herbs/juniper infusions (or redistilations). True geneva = distilled grain wash with redistilation (or infusion, maceration, whatever) of herbs and (at least juniper) berries.

Now geneva or genever is our national drink. The drink of the low countries. Holland, Belgium, northern France, northern Germany. Where Dutch people used to live or people used to speak Dutch.

But before juniper flavouring became practice, distilling already took place in the low countries of Europe. Not very fresh water, trading populations traveling a lot, in need of drinks that could keep for prolongued periods of time.

Probably the first likker was distilled beer. Beer would turn sour after a week. Distill it and you have something you can keep longer. But recirculating heads and tails, and crude distillation techniques (burning, f.i.) would off flavour the product. And prolongued sailing periods asked for a drink that kept good, but also kept your stomach and kidneys in working order. Juniper fixes both. It masks off tastes and helps the digestive trajectory. So it became the standard.

But in some parts of the country, they didn't travel and/or sail that much. Or they had stock supplies of grains. In those parts the original distilling techniques without berries and herbs stayed around. Their products were called genever, because everything strong was called that way. Just like "spirits" or "likker", I guess.

Then nation states developed, laws were made, and genever became defined as it was for 90% of the country: a juniper enriched grain product.

So the only way Filliers can call their genever genever, is by adding a minimal amount of juniper. Really minimal. Actually not detectable. And by drinking an actually not herbs/berries redistilled geneva, I learned some great things.

Because, looking at the definitions of above, a "geneva" without herbs or berries ... would be ... a whiskey, right? But, why does it taste so much more intense (sorry to say: better as well)? And how come so many subtilities in the taste of this "whiskey" are there? Subtilities that I would have given credit for to the herbs, would I not have tasted this product?

Genever is fermented and distilled on the grain. It is not part of the legal definition, but it is the way things are done. By tasting a product without any (detectable) juniper or herbs, I learned that it is not just the herbs bill that makes a geneva great, it is the "whiskey" base that makes it fantastic. The fermenting on the grain, the distilling on the grain does not make it a geneva (the berries and herbs do), but the extra taste in the grain base likker (by itsself, before redistilling it with berries, etc.) is what does the trick. Juniper berries (and other herbs) over power any other taste of any other drink I tried. You can put it in regular whiskey and you will not find the whiskey back anymore. Not in the palate, not in the nose, not in the mouth feel. Maybe a bit, on the background, that's all.

But a good geneva (not just talking about Filliers who happen - almost - not to use herbs & berries) has a different balance. Grain AND berries/herbs. I just now learned it is because of the increadible amount of taste in the base grain likker. And that it has to come from the fermenting and distilation approach. Stupid thing is (from a more international perspective) that they could label the stuff just as whiskey, increase their profit and sell the shit out of it. Without herbs, that would be.

I also understand why my young style geneva got 92 points. It truely is a great drink. I have improved my "old style" (true) geneva as well, but it is not up to standards. It is good, but not impressive. And now I know why. I make a whiskey and re-run with herbs and berries. I shouldn't have been making a whiskey, I should have been making a "moutwijn": fermented on the grain, distilled on the grain, low abv wash, allowing for dextrines (unfrermentable sugars) to be present.

So if you want to start making a geneva, start with a young style. It will beat the crap out of any gin you ever tried. Gins are mixed with tonic or whatever. Genevers, old style nor young style aren't. But to make a truely great old styler (and a better whiskey in the process), distilling and fermenting on the grain are the ways to follow.

In short, Mr. P: you can't make a geneva without herbs and berries, but you can make a better whiskey and a better old style geneva by introducing fermenting and distilling on the grain.

Hope this makes sense.

Shit, I am turning pretty anal on geneva. Don't hope there is a cure for that.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by rtalbigr »

Thx for posting all that Odin. :clap:

So....now this opens up an entirely new concept in whiskey production. :shock: :?

Odin, what about the yeast? If you ferment on grain and then do the strip run with grain, well, isn't the yeast going to be all mixed in? Is that part of the flavors? Or is this like running dirty where ya just need to do the strip real slow, minimize energy input?

Ok, I have a false bottom in my still, but I'm wondering along with BIAB what about distilling with the bag? If the bag will hold up when mashing at up to boiling temps it should work just fine in the still cuz ya never really get to boiling temps.

Ok, I'm rambling.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

I would say that yeast has a very distinct smell & taste. I think I can "find" it in my low wines. Even when I clear really well. But that taste seems to go away on second distillation.

In their genever/whiskey there was no yeast to be detected. I tried the second distillation product, the third (final) distillation product, and of course the aged products.

Stripping goes very quick. They throw a lot of power to the column. The potstill, used for second distillation, seems to run at a much slower rate.

The yeast they use is normal bread yeast. And they ferment in a closed environment so wild yeast infection is pretty much out of the equasion.

Fermenting on the grain, distilling on the grain seems to be the answer. At least, I suspect so. Theories? Fermenting on the grain means a longer exposure time of liquids/alcohols to taste giving particles. And the presence of grain may give the yeast a more nutrient rich environment. And maybe the thickness of the fermentation liquid also helps? How about the next step?

Distilling on the grain. Distilling a grain rich beer means you extract even more flavours, because you are cooking those goodies. And maybe also: If you see the beer and grains as one wash (which it is), the relative percentage abv-wize may be lower. Not 8%, but 6%. That means a 25% increase, potentially, in concentration ("how many times goes 6 - or 8 - into a 40% likker?").

My experience is with distilling beers (whiskey style). And now also with fermenting on the grain. The latter gives me much more taste. Now how can I go ahead and achieve step 2: distilling on the grain? Big R, when you have a sieve plate/false bottom, and for certainty put grains in bags ... you might try it out. If you don't distill to fast (and I know you don't), you should be fine.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Jimbo
retired
Posts: 8423
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Down the road a piece.

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Jimbo »

Excellent write ups Odin, thanks for taking the time to enlighten us. :thumbup: Is there anything unique/special about the base grains they use? Base malts vary dramatically right, not only by species, 2 row, 6 row etc but by region (and I guess the malting methods) American, German Munich malt, UK Maris Otter, are all very different. Castle malt from Belgium has its own unique flavor as well.
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by rtalbigr »

I'm definitely going to have to work this out Odin. It's definitely going to be my next project. Fortunately I have lots of stuff of different grains in my basement to compare to.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

I don't know what malt is used in making maltwine. Probably 2 row. Might be Belgium. The semi-finished "maltwine" has a very, very strong malty taste & smell. Makes sense to call it "maltwine". Still the malt is only 30 to 33% of the grain bill. It takes another distillation round (third run: to make "korenwijn")to give a product that is balanced in rye and malt. I don't think the corn shines thru.

Just read up a bit. Seems like the first written report on making genever is by Jacob van Maerlant. The year? 1266. Now that's pretty old. It was used as a diureticum: help against stomach and kidney problems.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

So remember I got some 5 liters of 60% maltwine? Rye maltwine (60% rye, 30% barley, 10% corn)? And that I redistilled half of it into a rye whiskey and the other half into a korenwijn genever? Well, I did. And I had both recipees resting om Hungarian oak bullets for the better part of 1 1/2 month. About 10 grams of wood per liter at 60% abv. The genever on medium toast, the whiskey or "rogge brandewijn" on medium plus.

I am just in the process of taking them of the wood, diluting and putting them in bottles. So that they can age some more without wood. Nice difference in colors. Rye whiskey is dark brown, the genever is much lighter.

Keep y'all posted!

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Mgee
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 5:32 pm

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Mgee »

Sorry to dig up an old post but I just wanted to say thank you for sharing this. I'm going to be in Flanders at the end of the month and have already contacted Filliers regarding doing the standard tour they offer.....so fingers crossed.

I spend a lot of time in Holland and Belgium and I like a Genever (nowhere near as much as you Odin!). I have visited the famous bar in Antwerp and have also tried a tradition (I'm told it's a tradition anyway) of having a beer along side your Genever and alternating between the two.

I'm slowly reading through your Genever posts and I am finding them very interesting so thanks again :thumbup:
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Odin »

Thanks. There is a post I wrote about making genever. But it is unfortunately locked. Unfortunately, because you are now the second member in a few days that expresses to know more. Maybe the mods can re-open that thread?

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Mgee
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 5:32 pm

Re: Visiting Filliers Genever Distillery in Belgium

Post by Mgee »

One topic is locked but this one is still open viewtopic.php?f=11&t=48948 I am planning to take this recipe on as soon as I have a chance!
Post Reply