The forgotten drink

[Odin]

"The forgotten drink" is a sorta nick name for genever. What genever is? Well, apart from pretty much my obsession, it is a very old strong drink from the low countries. Where Dutch speaking people lived. Holland, Belgium, Northern France, North Western Germany.

Genever is originally a juniper flavoured sorta whiskey. The "whiskey" was made from rye, corn and malted barley. An extra distillation with juniper, coriander, etc. gave genever.

Yesterday I gave some kind of talk or presentation about myself and my hobby of home distilling. I talked a lot about genever and, suprisingly, got to hear some stories back I wasn't quite aware of. I want to share them. Many of them you might know, most of them I knew, but - allmost from a anthropological point of view - they are interesting. Well, if there is any anthropologists around on this forum. Who knows. Anyway, here we go.

- First mention of genever was in a book written by Jan van Maerlant in 1266. In what is now Belgium.
- Productwise there are three categories of genever. Neutral redistilled with herbs is called "Young (style) Genever", over 20% of maltwine (whiskey) blended in gives "Old (style) Genever", over 51% (normally 100%) maltwine/whiskey based genever is called "Korenwijn" (corn wine - from "a brandywine made out of corn").
- Regionally, three different styles can be seen. The western parts of Belgium and northern parts of France make a genever that is allmost purely made out of maltwine/whiskey. The central region of Belgium together with The Netherlands favours genever wit lots of juniper and many other herbs. The north western parts of Germany favour a genever that is just enforced with juniper. Nothing else.
- Traditionally, genever is tripple distilled.
- Traditionally, genever is fermented and distilled on the grain.
- Traditionally, the maltwine genevers are aged on wood. Originally for a short time in smaller casks, nowadays up to 15 years in bigger casks.
- Traditionally, genever is sold in earthenwork bottles of one liter. A tradition that dates back to the 16th century (at least).
- Those bottles can still be found anywhere around the world where Dutch people went or settled: South-Africa, Ivory coast, Gambia, New Guinea, Indonesia, Suriname, many Caribean islands and even in the early Western-European settlement around New-York, then called "Nieuw Amsterdam"
- In 1880 still, genever had a market share in the United States that was 8 times bigger than gin.
- It (almost?) completely faded away in the states during and after prohibition (hope that is the word) and never made a come back (hence the name "the forgotten drink").
- Many of the cocktails associated with gin can be traced back genever based cocktails. Cocktails & genever were pretty much an American invention. Over here we don't put anything in genever. We do make many fruit genevers by the way. Lemon, cherrie. Name a fruit and it is there.
- Can the rye whiskey that people in America nowadays drink have a connection with genever? Grain bills are very similar ... Open for discusion.
- Genever is still a very important drink in western Africa. Guinea, Ivory coast, Gambia. Couples only marrie when they have a bottle of Dutch genever. For good luck. I told this story yesterday and two of the people in the audience not only visited Gambia, they also were invited to a wedding. And yes, genever was served.
- This tradition dates back from a time where we cannot be too proud of: in the 17th and 18th century it were the Dutch that moved about 1/3rd of all the slaves from the old to the new world.
- How? By feeding them drunk with genever. And by keeping them drunk while sayling to (especially) South-America.
- Another member in my audience, who is from African decent, where his great, great, great, etc. parents were taken by the Dutch and moved to Suriname in South-America as slaves told me this: escaped slaves that lived in the Amazone area (so called "bush negroes" - no offense intended, just stating the name they give themselves) took with them their original African beliefs. "Winti" it is called. Genever plays a major part in the Winti ceremonies.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

Nice to see you post Odin. Giving presentations on Geneva now? When's the book going to come out? Your starting to build up quite a few notes on its history. And what its been made from. Next logical step is a book. I for one would like to see you go that route. You defiantly have the passion for it. And I always like to read your posts about it. Every one of them makes me want to try it more. Great post Odin. Thanks.

[Samohon]

Great read Odin.

Thanks man...

[Odin]

Wow, thanks guys! I was a bit afraid some members would get over, put a strait-jacket on me and send me of to the asylum of genever idiots. Nice to see others like the info.

On books ... I actually just finished writing a book. Not about genever, but about my dealings as an employee with managers. I have my fair share of stories to tell. And a bit more than a fair share, at that. Anecdotical, funny, hilarious. Well, I hope.

Not my first book, but it is my first "proza" (if that is the word) book. In other words, I like writing. So far a training book for middle management, a training book for sales people and accountmanagers, and a book on pension planning. Something else. "Black sheep" with whom I run the Dutch sorta "homedistiller"-forum invited me to do a book on distillation together. Building, recipes, theory, practice, aging, etc. Maybe a book on genever after that?

Who knows.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

Will there ne an English version? I would buy it either way. But I would like to be able to read it.

[LWTCS]

Great write up Odin.

[Odin]

Nope. Book will be in Dutch. Well, if I can find a publisher that is!

Thanks LWTCS.

I am just doing some google research on the web. Might be genever is starting a small rallye, at your side of the pond.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/dinin ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Strange thing is, all those gin drinkers want to put genever on rocks or in tonic or in martini's. As the taste tests show: not a good idea. Drink it straight!

Odin.

[Bushman]

Man my next trip to Europe, I am going to figure out a way to meet up with you and try some of this as you have my mouth watering and it is only 6 in the morning here

[Odin]

For the interested reader ... an eBook on Belgian genever history. Not 100% accurate, but interesting not the least. In English.

http://belgiangenever.com/uploads/A_det ... _life..pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And the website that goes along with it.

http://belgiangenever.com/Home_Page.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

BM: you are more than welcome! Put in another way: don't dare visit Holland without meeting up!

Odin.

[Bushman]

Wow, thanks guys! I was a bit afraid some members would get over, put a strait-jacket on me and send me of to the asylum of genever idiots. Nice to see others like the info.

On books ... I actually just finished writing a book. Not about genever, but about my dealings as an employee with managers. I have my fair share of stories to tell. And a bit more than a fair share, at that. Anecdotical, funny, hilarious. Well, I hope.

Not my first book, but it is my first "proza" (if that is the word) book. In other words, I like writing. So far a training book for middle management, a training book for sales people and accountmanagers, and a book on pension planning. Something else. "Black sheep" with whom I run the Dutch sorta "homedistiller"-forum invited me to do a book on distillation together. Building, recipes, theory, practice, aging, etc. Maybe a book on genever after that?

Who knows.

Odin.

Good luck, I have never written a book but have contributed to different manuals and design briefs in the industrial design area.

[Odin]

A picture of a bottle of Korenwijn I bought earlier today. Made by "Rutte & Sons". Supposed to be really nice. Will open her up in a few hours ...

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

Can a Geneva be produced in America and still legally be called Geneva? I noticed in that NYTs article you posted. That a distillery in SF was making one. But called it something else. The name was Genevieve? Sounds more like a marketing name. And should it be called Geneva or Genever.

In the laws it referees to Geneva gin as Holland's gin. And like other things I'm wondering if its a teritorial thing. Like scotch.

(c) Class 3; gin. "Gin" is a product obtained by original distillation from mash, or by redistillation of distilled spirits, or by mixing neutral spirits, with or over juniper berries and other aromatics, or with or over extracts derived from infusions, percolations, or maceration of such materials, and includes mixtures of gin and neutral spirits. It shall derive its main characteristic flavor from juniper berries and be bottled at no less then 80 proof. Gin produced exclusively by original distillation or by redistillation may further designated as "distilled." "Dry gin" (London dry gin), "Geneva gin" (Hollands gin), and "Old Tom gin" (Tom gin) are types of gin known under such designations.

Like all law speak. Very cornfusing.

[Bushman]

A picture of a bottle of Korenwijn I bought earlier today. Made by "Rutte & Sons". Supposed to be really nice. Will open her up in a few hours ...

Odin.

Love the globe in the background. It would be nice to take a picture of each drink made with the globe positioned to show the origin from around the world

[Odin]

From a law perspective, Mr. P, a genever/jenever can only be made in the low countries: Holland, Belgium, "Ost-Friesland" (an originally Dutch speaking department in Germany) and "Pas de Calais/Flandres" (region in France that was/is Dutch speaking).

Like Scotch can be made in Scotland only.

But I myself draw the definition broader. For me it is more about how it is made. The most distinguishing characteristic being (in anglo-saxon terms) that a genever is made from "whiskey", not from GNS. Less important differences: the sweetness of genever as opposed to the dryness of many gins (due to redistillation at 70%, instead of watering down first). Or: gins using more fruit (skins), lemon, orange, etc.

Again, like Scottish whisky. The main difference is not it's point of origin, but the fact it is made out of 100% malted barley.

I guess they choose the name Genevieve, because it is close to geneva/genever. If I look at their taste notes, I am not too sure it is closer to genever than to gin, actually, but who knows.

You know, if I were the guy at the, how is it called, Brooklyn micro distillery, in New York, I would really start to make genever and call it genever. If anybody has a problem with that ... thanks for the extra publicity. So many conections to be made. New York formerly being known as New Amsterdam, the greater province of New York being the former colony of New Holland, "Brooklyn" deriving from "Breukelen", a village only 10 miles from where I live. Throw in "fire water" to enchant the native American population, establish a line of fruit genevers to please the Manhattan early adaptor cocktail crowd and of you are ...

Bushman, got that globe from the Mss. Really wanted one. It can open and has some bottles and glasses on the inside. And it isn't even a complete fraud. Okay, it ain't 18th century, it is actually new, but it was handcrafted in Italy. Nice piece of work. My place in the house is next to it. It a club fauteuil, reading the newspaper, smoking a cigar, drinking some genever. The best place in the house for sure.

Odin.

For some more reading in English:

http://www.imbibemagazine.com/Rousing-t ... -Amsterdam" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.drinkspirits.com/genever/exp ... s-genever/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Prairiepiss]

I'm thinking more along the lines if would the TTB approve a COLA for something called Geneva?

[Odin]

A COLA being a sorta law defining how and why a drink can be called this or that, Mr. P? COLA only rings a bell to me as a beverage. Just asking.

More info on the forgotten drink. It isn't forgotten in Argentina. Friend of mine mailed me that he visited the country some 20 years ago and all the Argentino's wanted to talk to him about genever. They make it themselves (ginebra), but consider the stuff from Holland the real deal.

Looked into it myself and just read that in Argentina genever is especially used by gaucho's / ranchero's (cowboys). They drink it from cow horns. Hope they fill it to the rim ...

Some notes on Rutte's Korenwijn. Poored myself three glasses. Colour: a slight hint of barrel ageing. Nose: juniper and malt. Taste: malty, juniper on the back ground, coriander, sweet. I think there is some cardemom in there. And after some time a hot and long finish. I suspect liquorice is the cause of that. The maltiness is interesting, the start vs finish as well: first sweet, then hot. The hotness is a bit over powering. I have the same problem with liquorice. You can go for 0.2 grams per liter or 0.1 grams per liter or even less. When it is there it is hot. Hot as in fire piss: a slight burning sensation on the gum. And when you dilute it too much ... it just ain't there. In general: nice korenwijn genever. If I would rate it on a 10 point scale, I would give it an 8-. There are better options to be found in the market place.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

COLA Certificate of Label Approval.

liquorice would be the one flavor that I would have the hardest time with. I have never liked it. And things that are over powering with the smell and tastes. I just can't handle. But a hint mixed in with other things I can deal with.

On a side note l went to the spice store yesterday and picked up all the other spices you just mentioned. I kinda wondered through the spice section picking out anything that rang a bell for distilling. Cardemom, Coriander, Whole clove, All spice berries, Anise seed, and some really nice cinnamon sticks. So I can finally try the fire piss with regular cinnamon. They didn't or I didn't see any juniper. It's not a true spice shop. It's a gardening shop that sells bulk spices. And really good prices. I got about a half point jar of each of these. Along with some Italian seasoning and Jalapeno dip mix for under $20. And I was kinda in a hurry. So I need to locate a supplier for juniper berries here local. But I'm sure they have others that I over looked. And will make me a list before I go next time. If you wouldn't mind Odin. Could you pm me a list of spices and or herbs that you can think of for me to add to the kit?

[Odin]

Sure. Will do.

Odin.

[rtalbigr]

Ok Odin,

Maybe I'm just thinkin the wrong way or what? But the Filliers recipe I've been talking with you about, how does it fit in? Even without all the herbs is it still a geneva because it is made in a more traditional way? I know you have talked about that distilling on grain gives the spicier note that characterizes the "old" traditional drink.

Btw, I've done a couple of strips on grain with good success. The low wines are really cloudy but I expected that. It leads me to believe there is going to be loads of flavor. I'm not sure if I really want to triple distill though, what do you think?

Thank for the history lesson!

Big R

[Prairiepiss]

Big R you doing rye?

[LWTCS]

I'm not sure if I really want to triple distill though, what do you think?

Plated column in your future Big R?

[rtalbigr]

Big R you doing rye?

Hey Mr. P -

Ya, doin some rye. I just post a recipe in Recipe Development.

I'm not sure if I really want to triple distill though, what do you think?

Plated column in your future Big R?

Larry, I've given that a lot of thought and I think that at some point I'll need to get serious about it, so, ya someday.

Big R

[Odin]

Big r, dont triple distill, is my advice.

[Rivver]

Hey Prairie, don't you have some juniper trees around ya there somewhere's that you can get some berrys off of? A lot of the trees at my farm are loaded with them.

Or is this a different type of juniper that I'm talking about?

[Odin]

I am home now. No sh*tty handheld whatever. Behind a real computer. Big R. Don't tripple distill if you don't have to. If you can reach a high enough abv by double distilling, that's the way to go.

Officially it is a genever if at least some juniper extract is added. I guess legally wize Filliers does add some amount of juniper. A really very small amount.

My suggestion would be to ferment and distill on the grain. And age the product at 60% on wood. You can do a redistillation with herbs before that. But ... here is an even more interesting approach (sorry guys, I am "upping" my big story on geneva bit by bit).

Make the base product and let it age on wood. No herbs added At the same timie make some neutral (or take some unaged base maltwine product) of 60% abv. Cuts made and everything. Add like 1 kilo of juniper to 5 liters of 60% neutral or unaged base product. Let it sit for 3 days. Add water so the abv goes from 60% to 30% (simply add 5 liters of water) and distill. Potstill style you will probably get over 4 liters at 70%. Dilute to 60% and save in a seperate jar (if you can distill smaller amounts, that is good too).

Now take 1 kilo of coriander and 5 liters of 60% neutral or base product (or 500 grams of herbs and 2.5 liters, etc.). Macerate for 3 days, dilute to 30%, distill as above. You now have juniper essence and coriander essence.

Now do the same for bitter almonds. For Saint Johns Worth. For oranges and for lemons (just cut them in four, throw them in whole and distill like that). Ginger, elderberry, liquorice, grains of paradise. Knock yourselves out.

Now, when the maltwine is aged (on wood), take (say) 10 liters. Or actually take some small glasses and experiment. That is even better. But to give some directions. First try the juniper essence and the coriander. 2:1. Maybe like 0.4 liter of juniper essence and 0.2 liter of coriander. Experiment, but know you can always add more but never get back out what you already added. Now maybe the 0.04 liters of the almonds, st JW's and paradise grains. Maybe 0.04 liters of liquorice essence ...

I know we are taking this game to a whole new ball game, and you can off course distill in one go ... but if you want to find your taste ... why not try it like this? Maybe starting with just three herbs: juniper, coriander and ... something you like. 2:1:0,2 will probably do it. And if ingredient 3 is spice go 2:1:0,02. That is 2 parts of juniper essence, 1 part of coriander, one tenth or one one hundreth of the other root/herb.

I use a small 10 liter alambic for this. It is heated from the outside. It stands on a hotplate. Internal element will not do. Gas, hotplate will.

Rivver, please be careful of the sort of geneva. Juniperus comunis is okay, so is Juniperus virginiana. Others may cause alergic reactions.

Odin.

[HolyBear]

Hey there Sir Odin, very much looking forward to the forthcoming sip...

I have a question that might also be asked of you in the future if you are now giving lectures and thinking of a book. It about corn. Corn (Maize) is from the New World. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Corn is also an old term for grain. It is used as such in the King James Bible. http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030204.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow So, since "corn" has more than one meaning, and the first mention of Genever was in 1266, (long before maize made it over to the Old World), could it be that the original grain bill was different than what it is today???

Edit to add, after reading back over this thread and visiting the website mentioned earlier, I see the reason for date/term discrepancy. Originally genever was made with spirits of wine, then the vineyards failed (as they did basically all across Europe), because of the "Mini Ice Age", beers/grain spirits became the base...

[Odin]

Yep, you got that right, Wacabi! The venture into grain first started by fermenting all malted barley. But malted barley is expensive and not the staple grain in the Low Countries. So when people found out you needed only like 1/3 of malted barley for conversion, the grain bill changed to 2/3 of rye (yes, the staple grain over here) and 1/3 of malted barley. Later on, in the 17th century, maize ("corn" in your tongue) came over and was quickly introduce into the grain bill. Why? For no other reason than high sugar content and low cost. A regular grain bill is now like 1/3 of rye, corn and malted barley. Some traditional distilleries use more like 60% rye, 30% malted barley and only 10% corn. Gives a spicier more distinct drink, but not to everyones liking.

Odin.

[Odin]

... okay, let's go one step deeper. I am trying to "open up your minds" here and shift your thinking from "whiskey" to "genever". Just for the interested reader.

Here we go. One step back, two forwards.

First that one step backwards. Remember that geneva is usually triple distilled? Why is triple distilling needed, if even the first mostly continuous distillation can get you to 70%? Well, a continuous stripper is very well suited for dealing with "on the grain" distilling (direct or indirect steam heating, draw off of spent grains & water at the bottom, ...), but not so good in making cuts. Not at all.

Okay, that's where distillation run number 2 comes into play. The "ruwbrand" (rough burn) is put into a potstill, diluted to 30% and re-run. Why 30%? because like that abv of the output will be below 80%, so no compromizes on taste. You start to loose out on taste above 80% in a potstill. But back to the central Q. Cannot those bloody distillers in the Low Countries make proper cuts on a 30% "low wines"? Or: why do they need the 3rd run?

Answer: off cours a 30% low wines content (giving approx. 70% output) is enough for good cuts in one round. And that is why I adviced Big R to do it like that: just two runs, with cuts on run 2. So why that third run? Remember they are making "maltwine", "korenwijn", and there is still some redistillation to be done in order to add the herbs & berries.

The second distillation is done with half cuts. Only 50% of heads & tails are tossed out (and redistiled, but that is another issue). This gives, after distillation number 2 a "maltwine". Why is that good? Why not take full cuts and end up with a "korenwijn" after distillation run number 2? Because of two reasons.

Firstly, do you remember the part where herbs & berries are distilled? If you redistill with herbs you have to take a small heads and tails cut anyhow. Because lots of juniper oils are in the first 20 mls (homedistilling size batches) and you want to toss them. And the last part of the run will acumulate some harsher notes.

So why use a fully cut product, if you are going to make cuts on the herbs & berries run anyhow? Now that is the first reason for making three distillations. The second one gives a half ready product perfectly suitable for the herbs & berries run! And remember that great "whiskey" you are aging as we speak (okay, almost)? If the ageing process (on wood) is ready, start mixing this aged "korenwijn" with the "maltwine" you redistilled with herbs & berries.

Now to reason number two. Remember there is two styles of genever? Well, there is actually more. Let's say number one is more or less a vodka with a redistillation with herbs & berries. Young style. Now on the other end of the spectrum is a "korenwijn": a 100% "whiskey" based geneva. Now there is a third one, sorta in between. With various amounts of "maltwine" and Grain Spirit Neutral (GNS). Imagine you make a nice young style geneva. And you want to go up market. What you need is the introduction of those malty tastes. The process of going from young style to "korenwijn" is does not have to be from zero to one hunderd in one second. Intermediate solutions are there.

For instance, you make a young styler, but want it to have that grainy bite & feel without it becoming too complex. What you do, is you make, by re-distilling GNS with herbs & berries a base geneva. And then you mix in up untill 15% of "maltwine" (much less in most cases). Maltwine? Yes, maltwine, the semi finished product with only half of the cuts taken. What is the advantage of that? That the broad middle cut has lots & lots of taste. Really. I have tried it pure. It is like eating pure grain bread. You take a sip and your eyes start going from left to right, looking for a fork & knife. Only small parts added to a GNS give over a lot of the malty tastes.

Back to the three distillations. First one is to distill on the grains and to concentrate. Second one is to make maltwine, which can be either added to a GNS based geneva, making it a "young grain geneva" instead of just a "young geneva", or it can be used to distill herbs & berries with, making another small cut on that third run. Or the maltwine can be distilled a third time, making final cuts, and putting it into barrels to age.

Back to Filliers. And back to geneva making in the Low Countries. We have "stokers" and "distillers". "Stokers" only do the first step. Or the first and second step. "Distillers" do the third step. Filliers makes a maltwine and sells a lot of that to Dutch genever makers, who add up to 15% to their GNS young styler. They also use part of it to be further distilled with herbs & berries. This "gebeide" maltwine of "wholed over" maltwine is also sold to other genever makers. And they use it to flavour their own "korenwijn"; the triple distilled finished product.

So you see that making geneva is not only playing with herbs or with herbs and grain. There is also a strategy as to how much grain based product is used versus GNS. Now that may read, to a whiskey drinker, as puting water to wine. As fraud. Why (to turn it around a bit more still) put GNS in your otherwise perfect "korenwijn", or "korenwijn with herbs & berries"? Easy, because the taste of the grain is (due to fermentation on the grain and distillation on the grain) much stronger as compared to a regular whiskey. The master distiller of a genever distillery has to make a decision: "do I go 100% korenwijn with herbs added? But then I have to add lots of herbs & berries, or let the grain (malt) taste prevail." Or he can add in like 30% of GNS to lower the "kick" of the grains part in the taste, just because he thinks that he doesn't want his geneva to be too malty. Okay, hope you guys get the extra dimension this gives. Playing with herbs AND playing with grains in order to reach a certain balance.

Back to a Q posted earlier. Is a geneva without geneva still a geneva? No, legally there has to be some geneva in it. But does that mean, that if you don't add that essence, you have a whiskey or at least not a drink inherent to the Low Countries? I think there is two ways to look at it.

If you call it a whiskey, you will find out it has more taste than anything you tried before.

But actually, you are making a drink indiginous to my land. It is only not called "whiskey" (and does not need 3 years of ageing on wood). It is called (generally) a "Korenbrandewijn". A brandy made out of grain. And I guess that is the real name for a Dutch Whiskey: "Korenbrandewijn" or "Koren Brandewijn" (grain brandywine). Do you want to shift the balance towards rye (51% or more - hmmm doesn't that sound familiair?), you can call it a "Rogge Brandewijn" (rye brandywine). You can age it white for 5 weeks and consume it as is. Or put it on wood. Both are fine. At least to our definitions.

Shit, I have really got to stop writing those very long posts.

Okay, some more. Sorry, can't help myself. Q: is "korenwijn" the same as "koren brandewijn"? Yes it is. Korenwijn is short for Korenbrandewijn. What does this tell us? That you can make a Korenbrandewijn without geneva and you will have "Dutch Whiskey". Or you can add herbs & berries infused maltwine and make a "Korenbrandewijn Genever" or, short, a "korenwijn jenever".

Hope I still make sense.

Odin.

[Rivver]

Okay, not to get off of subject here, but I have a question about the herbs at this point. When distilling with herbs, do you use like a permeable cloth sack to put the herbs into? And if so, where would they sit in the vapor trail, top of the column or top of the boiler? I'm assuming you don't want it to come into contact with the liquid mash in the boiler correct?

The reason I'm asking this is, the dome lid on the top of my boiler has a SS mesh plate on it that I could wire a small bag of herbs to, to hang above the mash. Just curious.

[Odin]

There are in all 4 methods. One is to make a drink and steep herbs & berries and then filter. Not the best. Another is vapour infusion: herbs in the vapour path. Less heavy results, but more subtle on fruit notes. Light geneva/gin. Two remaining methods: let the herbs & berries sit in the drink for 2 weeks, strain, distill; or put herbs & berries in for 12 to 24 hours (around 40%) and redistill with herbs in boiler. Indirect heating is required. Or at least from the outside. Hotplate, gass. Internal element doesn't work. But "with herbs in the boiler" gives the most intense, complex, full taste. Apart from fruit skins. Those are better vapour infused. But fruit skins are not a standard ingredient in geneva. They are in gin.

Odin.