MileHi TBB Reporting

[boda getta]

Does anyone know the date MileHi started reporting customer lists to the TBB and if they were required to report these records retroactively (customer info who bought before that date).

Thanks,
BG

[rad14701]

Call Mile-Hi and ask... The TTB has sent letters to all vendors recently, asking for records to be supplied every three months from what I've read... The first time they were asked was around August 2013, if memory serves me correctly... So if you purchased anything since August 2010, you could be on the list...

[boda getta]

" around August 2013, if memory serves me correctly... So if you purchased anything since August 2010, you could be on the list.."

I hope you meant if I purchased since August 2013 I could be on the list.

BG

[boda getta]

Also, Mile Hi website asks not to call them because they are so busy this time of the year. I emailed several days ago with no reply, probably for the same reason.

BG

[rad14701]

" around August 2013, if memory serves me correctly... So if you purchased anything since August 2010, you could be on the list.."

I hope you meant if I purchased since August 2013 I could be on the list.

BG

No, I worded it correctly... When records are requested they can legally ask for the previous three years... So the date range would be Mid-2010 until now... It is what it is...!!!

[Taaser]

Mile Hi says not to call them, i called a few times and spoke to 2 different people. If its busy or you get an answering machine, keep calling you will get through.

[milehidistilling]

Sorry I forgot about the notice on the contact page it has been removed.
You can call Monday to Friday 8am to 3pm we are on the phone all day long so if it’s busy try back in about 10 minutes.
The TTB as informed us thy sent out 90,000 letters

There has been a random mailing to intimidate still owners and slow down the still sales. The TTB told us they have about 100,000 records of stills purchased from manufactures and resellers going back three years.


All still manufactures are required to report sales to the TTB. If there are any distiller manufacturers or reseller that are not currently reporting they will be required to and they will also have to go back 3 years. Still manufactures or resellers can be fined $1000 per still for not reporting.

The TTB told us that they are simply keeping records and that it is not illegal to own a still in most states but it is illegal to make your own liquor without a permit by federal and in most states by state law. They also told us that they have 65 agents across the US and do not have the manpower to follow up on each person who owns a still to be sure they are not making alcohol without a permit. They would need probable cause and search warrant to go into depth which is not feasible. In Colorado there is a minimal fine if you are found home distilling. You can legally buy weed here in Colorado but you can't distill ??? Each state is different please check your state laws. This is noted on our website and you can look on http://www.ttb.gov for more information.



Mile Hi Distilling sells stills to police, firefighters, lawyers and everyone else. We also sell to survivalists that keep a still on hand in case shit every hits the fan they can distill water. You can also use a still to make essential oils for soaps, candles, skin care etc.



We do have this notice on a few pages on the web site.

.WARNING: Distilling alcohol at home, also known as moonshine making is illegal in many countries. But you can use these distillers for many other uses. Like water, vinegars, essential oils, and even engine fuel. It is the responsibility of the user to abide by the laws of your country. Mile Hi Distilling strongly discourages any unlawful use, and is not responsible for any damage or injury caused by misuse or unlawful use.

TTB Laws

Under Federal rules administered by TTB, it depends on how you use the still. You may not produce alcohol with these stills unless you qualify as a distilled spirits plant. However, owning a small still and using it for other purposes is allowed ( essential oil, water, vinegar, etc ) . You should also check with your State and local authorities - their rules may differ. Under regulations in part 29 of title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, TTB has the right to require manufacturers of complete stills and towers to give the name and address of each customer. Supplies and parts are not reported. All distiller manufactures and resellers have been asked to give quarterly reports by the TTB. If buying a distiller things you should do.

Keep your still clean.

Apply for an alcohol fuel permit.

Remember it’s not illegal to own a distiller in most states and depends on how you use it that makes it legal or not.

[HDNB]

well worded. makes sense.

if i understand this correctly, i can buy replacement parts for my essential oil still, like a 3"section with a site glass in it, some tri clamps, some plate and maybe a new 2" 180 and there is no requirement to report these parts purchases to TTB, and further i have your assurances that my parts purchases will be confidential, un reported and meet all the current privacy laws?

[milehidistilling]

well worded. makes sense.

if i understand this correctly, i can buy replacement parts for my essential oil still, like a 3"section with a site glass in it, some tri clamps, some plate and maybe a new 2" 180 and there is no requirement to report these parts purchases to TTB, and further i have your assurances that my parts purchases will be confidential, un reported and meet all the current privacy laws?

Call the shop and ask Jason the manager I believe they are asking for complete stills towers also boilers but parts and supplies are not reported.

303-987-3955

[goose eye]

Kinda scary you coming on an sayin this an that an you
ain't got a clue what you gotta report.


So I'm tole

[boda getta]

From the Mi High post

"They also told us that they have 65 agents across the US and do not have the manpower to follow up on each person who owns a still to be sure they are not making alcohol without a permit. They would need probable cause and search warrant to go into depth which is not feasible."

This raises a question: Will the TBB notify your local law enforcement (city, county or state) if your name is on their list??

BG

[planethax]

......

This raises a question: Will the TBB notify your local law enforcement (city, county or state) if your name is on their list??

BG

I guess it is possible but a many states allow owning stills and such I doubt locals would follow up, unless there is another cause of concern.

[Doogie]

The TTB told us that they are simply keeping records and that it is not illegal to own a still in most states but it is illegal to make your own liquor without a permit by federal and in most states by state law. They also told us that they have 65 agents across the US and do not have the manpower to follow up on each person who owns a still to be sure they are not making alcohol without a permit. They would need probable cause and search warrant to go into depth which is not feasible. In Colorado there is a minimal fine if you are found home distilling. You can legally buy weed here in Colorado but you can't distill ??? Each state is different please check your state laws. This is noted on our website and you can look on http://www.ttb.gov for more information

**Disclaimer, I am a Canuck, and I am not a lawyer**

But I disagree with this statement if "records" are complete in their info. In this case, it is EXTREMELY simple to get a warrant.

1) They have probable cause to believe that the occupant of the residence has a still - the builder GAVE them that information
2) They will probably go knock on yer door, ask nicely, to which you either:
a) Fess up and lose your still, maybe get a ticket
b) Scream about your rights, deny everything, plead the rights of the Constitution and tell them to f'off.
i) to which they leave you alone
ii) or they lock down your property, get a warrant, think you have a gun and break down your nice door to toss in flash bangs (ok, maybe not those).

They have everything they need to get a warrant. For your customers, remember YOUR COMPANY provides legitimate trackable information on WHO bought WHAT and WHEN and to WHAT LOCATION. YOUR COMPANY provides enough reasonable cause to secure a warrant. Stop bullshitting people like other people who think they are immune to the probable cause required for a warrant. If you want to learn a bit about this new concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_war ... ted_States

Bullstuff that they only have 65 agents - like that matters - they grab the local cops, tell them what to do, and go running around justifying their existance and budgets.

Nice how you state that "in Colorado there is a minor fine for home distilling" - care to point out what the offense of home distilling will bring you in the other states??? It is irresponsible to state the minor issues in certain areas to hide the major penalties one can get if you are in other areas.

Just another reason if you want to do this, build it yourself. If you are looking to go commercial, then I would easily order MileHi stuff ...

[HDNB]

well worded. makes sense.

if i understand this correctly, i can buy replacement parts for my essential oil still, like a 3"section with a site glass in it, some tri clamps, some plate and maybe a new 2" 180 and there is no requirement to report these parts purchases to TTB, and further i have your assurances that my parts purchases will be confidential, un reported and meet all the current privacy laws?

Call the shop and ask Jason the manager I believe they are asking for complete stills towers also boilers but parts and supplies are not reported.

303-987-3955

i was reading this as a wink wink nudge nudge infomercial to "buy parts" not stills...which led to my question for assurances...as soon as i read "i believe" in the response... i started thinking like goose eye:

Kinda scary you coming on an sayin this an that an you
ain't got a clue what you gotta report.


So I'm tole

and now in TOTAL agreement with doogie

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

**Disclaimer, I am a Canuck, and I am not a lawyer**

But I disagree with this statement if "records" are complete in their info. In this case, it is EXTREMELY simple to get a warrant.

1) They have probable cause to believe that the occupant of the residence has a still - the builder GAVE them that information
2) They will probably go knock on yer door, ask nicely, to which you either:
a) Fess up and lose your still, maybe get a ticket
b) Scream about your rights, deny everything, plead the rights of the Constitution and tell them to f'off.
i) to which they leave you alone
ii) or they lock down your property, get a warrant, think you have a gun and break down your nice door to toss in flash bangs (ok, maybe not those).

They have everything they need to get a warrant. For your customers, remember YOUR COMPANY provides legitimate trackable information on WHO bought WHAT and WHEN and to WHAT LOCATION. YOUR COMPANY provides enough reasonable cause to secure a warrant. Stop bullshitting people like other people who think they are immune to the probable cause required for a warrant. If you want to learn a bit about this new concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_war ... ted_States

Bullstuff that they only have 65 agents - like that matters - they grab the local cops, tell them what to do, and go running around justifying their existance and budgets.

Nice how you state that "in Colorado there is a minor fine for home distilling" - care to point out what the offense of home distilling will bring you in the other states??? It is irresponsible to state the minor issues in certain areas to hide the major penalties one can get if you are in other areas.

Just another reason if you want to do this, build it yourself. If you are looking to go commercial, then I would easily order MileHi stuff ...

There isn't a judge out there that will sign off on a warrant simply because the TTB knows that you own a still and you refused entry to them when they didn't have a warrant in the first place, they have no right to enter your abode, ...that is, as long as they didn't see something like a running still and also smell alcohol vapor when you foolishly opened the door and let them peek inside while you were telling them to get lost. The only exception would be if you live in a State where it is illegal to own a still in the first place.

The judge would have to see other tangible proof that you had indeed produced illegal alcohol or have committed some other illegal activity before issuing a warrant, at least here in the US, don't know how it is for you Canuckians up there.

[Doogie]

There isn't a judge out there that will sign off on a warrant simply because the TTB knows that you own a still and you refused entry to them when they didn't have a warrant in the first place, they have no right to enter your abode, ...that is, as long as they didn't see something like a running still and also smell alcohol vapor when you foolishly opened the door and let them peek inside while you were telling them to get lost. The only exception would be if you live in a State where it is illegal to own a still in the first place.

The judge would have to see other tangible proof that you had indeed produced illegal alcohol or have committed some other illegal activity before issuing a warrant, at least here in the US, don't know how it is for you Canuckians up there.

Again, I am not a lawyer, but read the wiki:

United States
Request for a search warrant dated December 11, 1905

Under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, most searches by the police require a search warrant based on probable cause, although there are exceptions. Any police entry of an individual's home always requires a warrant (for either search or arrest), absent exigent circumstances, or the free and voluntary consent of a person with reasonably apparent use of or control over the property.

Under the Fourth Amendment, searches must be reasonable and specific. This means that a search warrant must be specific as to the specified object to be searched for and the place to be searched. Other items, rooms, outbuildings, persons, vehicles, etc. may require additional search warrants.

To obtain a search warrant, an officer must first prove that probable cause exists before a magistrate or judge, based upon direct information (i.e. obtained by the officer's personal observation) or hearsay information. Hearsay information can even be obtained by oral testimony given over a telephone, or through an anonymous or confidential informant, so long as probable cause exists based on the totality of the circumstances. Both property and persons can be seized under a search warrant. The standard for a search warrant is lower than the quantum of proof required for a later conviction. The rationale is that the evidence that can be collected without a search warrant may not be sufficient to convict, but may be sufficient to suggest that enough evidence to convict could be found using the warrant.

Police do not need a search warrant, or even probable cause, to perform a limited search of a suspect's outer clothing for weapons, if police have a reasonable suspicion to justify the intrusion—a Terry "stop and frisk".

In the United States, the issue of federal warrants is determined under Title 18 of the United States Code. The law has been restated and extended under Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. Federal search warrants may be prepared on Form AO 93, Search and Seizure Warrant.[2] Each state also enacts its own laws governing the issuance of search warrants.

A customs or immigration officer of the United States is not required to have any warrant, reasonable suspicion, or consent to search persons, vehicles, baggage, or cargo that have border nexus; regardless of citizenship or origin. This is clearly stated in 19 U.S.C. 1467, 19 C.F.R. 162.6.

Definition in the United States

A common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".[2] Notable in this definition is a lack of requirement for public position or public authority of the individual making the recognition, allowing for use of the term by citizens and/or the general public.

In the context of warrants, the Oxford Companion to American Law defines probable cause as "information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime (for an arrest warrant) or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search (for a search warrant)". "Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. Even hearsay can supply probable cause if it is from a reliable source or supported by other evidence, according to the Aguilar–Spinelli test.

Again, I am no lawyer, but if I was I would probably state "I rest my case yer honour"

[Doogie]

While you may have a slight case for states that allow the possession of a still (provided the federal rules do not trump state rules on this subject), a judge would see more than enough probable cause for a state not allowing stills.

In a state with allowances for stills, then one must consider the permitted size (so if they let you have, say, a 5 gallon still and you bought a 8 gallon), and if you have a permit to distil likker aka fuel. Even then, they could probably argue that you may be using it for likker uses ...

And again, I stand by my claim that MileHi's assertion that there is not enough probable cause to generate a warrant is either bullshit, or needs to be further clarified by a legal team for it's clients.

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

In a State where it is legal to own a still, there is no crime, therefor, no probable cause to issue a warrant. They can't get a warrant just because they think you might be making alcohol without a permit. There must be something much more incriminating, verifiable, or tangible to justify issuing one.

WIKI: To obtain a search warrant, an officer must first prove that probable cause exists before a magistrate or judge, based upon direct information (i.e. obtained by the officer's personal observation) or hearsay information. Hearsay information can even be obtained by oral testimony given over a telephone, or through an anonymous or confidential informant, so long as probable cause exists based on the totality of the circumstances. Both property and persons can be seized under a search warrant. The standard for a search warrant is lower than the quantum of proof required for a later conviction.

First of all, WIKI isn't always the most accurate in terms of facts. Let's just assume that the previous quote is correct, unless somebody that knows you run a still to produce hooch gets pissed off at you and rats you out, there ain't gonna be an anonymous tipster to give any hearsay information to justify getting a warrant. If they fabricated "an informant", to obtain a warrant, arrested you and took you to court, if they could not prove to the sitting judge that it was a legitimate claim by the informant, the whole thing would get thrown out of court for illegal search and seizure. ....assuming you didn't have a complete dolt for a lawyer.

Remember that "Don't tell, don't sell" advice you see all over this site? It's emphasized over and over for a good reason.

Let's say that an LEO sees a bunch of mason jars full of hooch with hunks of oak sitting on the kitchen counter and a running still through the kitchen window while walking up to your front door, or sees same while looking past you when you open the front door, or you have the garage door open a couple feet to help stay cool, and he bends down for a peek and sees same, ....then it's tough shit for you for being stupid.

There are not going to be any warrants issued just because they know that you own a still, there will need to be some other verifiable incriminating evidence. Some States do have laws on the books where it is illegal to possess a still in proximity with any type of fermented mash/beer/must that could be distilled. So, in these States, someone who brews beer or makes wine and also has a still on the same property could possibly be at more risk if it is widely/commonly known that they are fermenting batches of homebrew.

....but, for people that have been smart and stealthy about their activities, I think this whole thing will just blow over without a bunch of drama happening. Of course there will always be those low-life idiots that make huge quantities of 'shine for sale, or sell drugs, and/or get caught doing other dumb-shit criminal activities. ....just like we have always been reading about in the news for years. Will there be some busts that happen just because of somebody's rotten luck and bad timing who were otherwise very careful? ...maybe a few. But, except for States where it illegal to own a still in the first place, I don't think that we will see another round of Florida type operations.

Now, seeing that you live in Canada, where it is illegal to own a still in the first place, but there seems to be no active "vendetta" going on in regards to enforcing laws about distillation by the hobbyist, ....well, that's a whole different can of worms. Just don't piss off the local RCMP, Mayor, Judge, etc., and most likely the status quo will remain in effect.

Oh, BTW, I'm not a lawyer either, ....but I do play one on TV. (not really)

[goose eye]

Soggy you sayin what a judge will an wont sign will
get you incarserated.
That's about like mile hi saying what ttb will an wont do.

Alright soggy, someone tells the law you makein likker.
You reckon they gonna investigate now they find you
bought a outfit. Preponderance of evidence
Loose lips sink ships.
Pride will get you caught.


So I'm tole

[HDNB]

Soggy you sayin what a judge will an wont sign will
get you incarserated.
That's about like mile hi saying what ttb will an wont do.

Alright soggy, someone tells the law you makein likker.
You reckon they gonna investigate now they find you
bought a outfit. Preponderance of evidence
Loose lips sink ships.
Pride will get you caught.


So I'm tole

++1

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

Soggy you sayin what a judge will an wont sign will
get you incarserated.
That's about like mile hi saying what ttb will an wont do.

So, are you saying that now I'm going to go to jail for having an opinion?! .....absolutely ludicrous!! I'm not giving legal advice here, just stating where I think all of this is going in the long run.

Alright soggy, someone tells the law you makein likker.
You reckon they gonna investigate now they find you
bought a outfit. Preponderance of evidence
Loose lips sink ships.
Pride will get you caught.


So I'm tole

I totally agree, that in essence, is exactly what I said in my post.

unless somebody that knows you run a still to produce hooch gets pissed off at you and rats you out, there ain't gonna be an anonymous tipster to give any hearsay information to justify getting a warrant. If they fabricated "an informant", to obtain a warrant, arrested you and took you to court, if they could not prove to the sitting judge that it was a legitimate claim by the informant, the whole thing would get thrown out of court for illegal search and seizure. ....assuming you didn't have a complete dolt for a lawyer.

Remember that "Don't tell, don't sell" advice you see all over this site? It's emphasized over and over for a good reason.

[goose eye]

If you live the words you write sayin what a judge will an
wont do, only time gonna answer that.

So I'm tole

[goose eye]

That why the number one lesson ever before ferminting
should be to HUSH. Next is where you can talk and when.
The next is what legal an what ain't in your location.
next is if you with someone make sure there ain't no
Flip flopping.
If you keep your wits about you then you should never
have a problem. You start getting prideful and your odds start droppin




So I'm tole

[Doogie]

@Soggy - yes, you are probably correct if your state allows possession of a still (as I stated earlier) - dunno - does Federal law trump State law or does it go the reverse direction? Dunno - I know the Feds dont want you owning pot, but in Colorado it is openly perfectly legal now - so I assume Fed is not greater than State.

If you are correct that in states where possession of a still is only illegal where fermentables are located on the same property, then yes it would be harder to satisfy the criteria for a warrant. You would have to be watching for them going onto the property with mass quantities of ingredients, etc.

But I dont think that is how it goes ... for a few reasons:

1) The TTB does not care about the fermentables in the determination of if the still is legit
2) The TTB does not care about stills with a capacity of less than a gallon

So to statisfy the warrant "probable cause" (which is different than absolute proof - which is not required for a warrant), the manufacturer information must include the size of the boiler ... or even (maybe) the size of the column, etc that would indicate connection to a boiler greater than 1 gallon (no practical use for a 3" column 5 feet high for a one gallon still right?)

Remember, the warrant is not for production - does not need to be - it is for possession of a still. Now, no doubt they will wander in and find some likker there - then a couple of things happen - if the quantity is reasonable to assume it will be consumed in house, then you probably lose your still and likker and probably if you are nice and all, get a ticket. If they wander in and find a shit ton of hooch, then they have reason to believe you are selling (God forbid you have more than $50 in your house - a wad of cash is a bad indicator of selling), then you lose it all and get charged with selling ...

Point I am trying to make is when MileHi says "No worry about a warrant" it is total bullshit on a country level - maybe in your state Soggy the requirements for a warrant are harder to satisfy, but in some areas it will not be that hard. The projected "calm" is being used to calm former clients and to counter a loss in sales - while exposing Joe Distiller to a potentially bad situation.

[Doogie]

INow, seeing that you live in Canada, where it is illegal to own a still in the first place, but there seems to be no active "vendetta" going on in regards to enforcing laws about distillation by the hobbyist, ....well, that's a whole different can of worms. Just don't piss off the local RCMP, Mayor, Judge, etc., and most likely the status quo will remain in effect.

Oh, BTW, I'm not a lawyer either, ....but I do play one on TV. (not really)

Ya, in Canada, according to the Excise Act, it is illegal to possess ANY part of a still - which is kind of weird - a condenser can be bought and used in a school to teach - I highly doubt they are registered with the gov't , but technically it is illegal

However, and while not concise, a search of CanLii (Canada's legal decisions database) shows no cases regarding home distilling - which goes with what I "heard" on the internet that their has never been charges or convictions for it. Now, there are charges of untaxed likker sales, but even these are things like likker that come in/back into Canada illegally (smuggling).

The Excise Act itself, I believe, does not even specify a penalty for owning and operating a still. Again, I am no lawyer, but it defines penalties for selling untaxed likker, but not for making it ...

However, I do not find it being legalized anytime soon with the current gov't - they are too busy fretting about pot becoming legalized and trying to revamp and lock down prostitution laws to worry about legalizing home distilling here ...

[T-Pee]

@Soggy - yes, you are probably correct if your state allows possession of a still (as I stated earlier) - dunno - does Federal law trump State law or does it go the reverse direction? Dunno - I know the Feds dont want you owning pot, but in Colorado it is openly perfectly legal now - so I assume Fed is not greater than State.

Supposedly Fed trumps state only because the Fed holds states hostage by withholding funds for highways and such but states are beginning to see benefits from telling the Fed to go pound sand.

tp

[cranky]

O.K. I probably should just keep my mouth shut but can't so I have to add that after the whole NSA thing started it got out that at times the NSA was using their illegal info gathering and "anonymously" informing local police of various activities. Didn't matter to either of them weather it was legal or not. Police only said it was an anonymous source, a judge went for it and somebody went to jail. Only now is it coming out that this went on and the convicts get to sit in a cell while trying to argue illegal search. Of course then there are the cases I've read where the local cop said he "Smelled something and thought it was (enter something here like "Making meth, or gas leak or whatever)" and no warrant needed or was easily obtained (plus according to the press release I read the TTB was accompanied by state cops when they did their little FLA show, to cover multiple bases). And this sort of thing has stood up in court literally millions of times. Even a little "Moonshine" bust gets lots of attention for the cops and I would never underestimate how little info it takes to get a warrant if somebody wants one and in most of this country cases don't get thrown out on a "technicality" as often as some people might think, especially when once they do enter they actually find a crime.

[CanadianBacon]

You cannot have your house searched for buying legal equipment that COULD be used for distilling, that's like buying a kitchen knife at Wallmart and having your house randomly searched for a possible murder weapon when you didn't do anything.Not sure out the USA but here in Canada they have probable cause.

Not opening the door and pretending your not home is the way to do it when you have an unexpected badge at your door and your breaking the law. Make sure if officers do come to you house for whatever reason and you can't hide you use a side door to go out of, lock it, call them over, then talk to them. Don't allow them to push there way through the house by answering the front door where there standing, I have seen police enter a residence this way by putting a foot in the door. My friend got arrested for assault on a police officer when they barged through an open door she opened to talk to them and he pushed one back and told them to stay out, I was less then a foot away when it all happened so I seen it first hand, She was found innocent but faced lots of legal costs.

[cranky]

You cannot have your house searched for buying legal equipment that COULD be used for distilling, that's like buying a kitchen knife at Wallmart and having your house randomly searched for a possible murder weapon when you didn't do anything.Not sure out the USA but here in Canada they have probable cause.

Not opening the door and pretending your not home is the way to do it when you have an unexpected badge at your door and your breaking the law. Make sure if officers do come to you house for whatever reason and you can't hide you use a side door to go out of, lock it, call them over, then talk to them. Don't allow them to push there way through the house by answering the front door where there standing, I have seen police enter a residence this way by putting a foot in the door. My friend got arrested for assault on a police officer when they barged through an open door she opened to talk to them and he pushed one back and told them to stay out, I was less then a foot away when it all happened so I seen it first hand, She was found innocent but faced lots of legal costs.

As far as needing evidence or a warrant

On the morning of June 27, detectives raided the couple’s home claiming that the property smelled of the ingredients used to make methamphetamine.
Detectives shot Eugene Mallory six times, killing him.
No evidence of a meth operation was ever found.

http://www.realfarmacy.com/detectives-k ... r-old-man/
No warrant needed, no evidence needed, and the guy will always be dead so no conviction needed. Never underestimate the "Department of Justifying our Existence" they will do whatever it takes right or wrong and "I smelled something" works very well.

[Doogie]

You cannot have your house searched for buying legal equipment that COULD be used for distilling, that's like buying a kitchen knife at Wallmart and having your house randomly searched for a possible murder weapon when you didn't do anything.Not sure out the USA but here in Canada they have probable cause.

Yes you can and no it is not.

To get searched, they only need probable cause. They already have that when the builder hands over the list of new owners of the nice new shiny stills they used.

As for the knife, no it is not the same. Possession of most knives is legal (I am sure you are not talking about massive machetes). In many states, possession of a still is illegal. Federally, possession without a license of a still over 1 gallon is illegal. It is not like a knife at all. You can buy a handgun, it is fine to make them and the builder to sell them, but to buy them you have to go thru some processes ... same thing.

I find your "dont answer the door and run out the side" absolutely funny - no, cops have never thought of this before ... lol ... while you run out to a field to call them over to talk, they will bust down yer door (with a warrant or cry "probable cause") and then send another officer (or the police dog) to go "talk" to you while the others search your house. No your honor, I was perfectly legal, I just ran from the cops and tried to keep them from my home ... lmao ... good luck with that!